The breakthrough of the Limes Options

[Meroveo92]

Why the Barbarian preferred to invade the Western Roman Empire? I'm talking about the period next the 395, when the Empire where divised between Arcadius and Onorius. I know that the West was in the "edge" of collapse, but why it was so much interesting for the Barbarians? Why they didn't choose the East, nearer than the the western territory??
Of course I talk about a full-scale invasion, not exactly like the Visigoths that after Adrianople sacked the Greece and then went to West. Waiting for you answers : )

[JGolomb]

Why the Barbarian preferred to invade the Western Roman Empire? I'm talking about the period next the 395, when the Empire where divised between Arcadius and Onorius. I know that the West was in the "edge" of collapse, but why it was so much interesting for the Barbarians? Why they didn't choose the East, nearer than the the western territory??
Of course I talk about a full-scale invasion, not exactly like the Visigoths that after Adrianople sacked the Greece and then went to West. Waiting for you answers : )

I've read some analysis that refers to the movement of the barbarians (at least during the 4th Century) as more of an immigration rather than an invasion. The Huns movement West had a large part to do with it. The Huns scared everybody - Romans and Barbarians alike. So they couldn't move eastward towards Asia since the Huns were already there.

There was movement South (like across the Danube) which led to Adrianople in 378. At the end of the 4th Century and early 5th, the Empire had some success at repelling attacks - Stilicho defeated Radagaisus in Raetia. He twice defeated Alaric in modern Italy - first near Milan and then Pollentia. I believe those two may have battled more than those two times. In early 400s, the Barbarians crossed the Rhine en masse.

I'm sure others will have more details than I can provide, but it seems like the Barbarians were sort of bursting at the seams of their territories...their only options were to move South and West. The Huns were in the East. Geography limited movement North. And so they ultimately burst through South and West.

[Meroveo92]

Why the Barbarian preferred to invade the Western Roman Empire? I'm talking about the period next the 395, when the Empire where divised between Arcadius and Onorius. I know that the West was in the "edge" of collapse, but why it was so much interesting for the Barbarians? Why they didn't choose the East, nearer than the the western territory??
Of course I talk about a full-scale invasion, not exactly like the Visigoths that after Adrianople sacked the Greece and then went to West. Waiting for you answers : )

I've read some analysis that refers to the movement of the barbarians (at least during the 4th Century) as more of an immigration rather than an invasion. The Huns movement West had a large part to do with it. The Huns scared everybody - Romans and Barbarians alike. So they couldn't move eastward towards Asia since the Huns were already there.

There was movement South (like across the Danube) which led to Adrianople in 378. At the end of the 4th Century and early 5th, the Empire had some success at repelling attacks - Stilicho defeated Radagaisus in Raetia. He twice defeated Alaric in modern Italy - first near Milan and then Pollentia. I believe those two may have battled more than those two times. In early 400s, the Barbarians crossed the Rhine en masse.

I'm sure others will have more details than I can provide, but it seems like the Barbarians were sort of bursting at the seams of their territories...their only options were to move South and West. The Huns were in the East. Geography limited movement North. And so they ultimately burst through South and West.

And the Huns? Have they attacked or invaded the Eastern Empire?

[Northern Neil]

The Huns extracted massive cash subsidies and land grants south of the Danube from Constantinople. As time went on, both huns and East Romans found this arrangement to their advantage; the frontier was moved back to the Danube and the Huns, bereft now of Attilla and squabbling in various factions, found it profitable to fight as auxilliaries for Constantinople.

[sylla]

Why the Barbarian preferred to invade the Western Roman Empire? I'm talking about the period next the 395, when the Empire where divised between Arcadius and Onorius. I know that the West was in the "edge" of collapse, but why it was so much interesting for the Barbarians? Why they didn't choose the East, nearer than the the western territory??
Of course I talk about a full-scale invasion, not exactly like the Visigoths that after Adrianople sacked the Greece and then went to West. Waiting for you answers : )

As it was previously explained, the Barbarians preferred to invade and immigrate to wherever they had any chance; the Huns and the Germanic peoples actually attacked both Empires.

The East survived the fifth century for other reasons, presumably at least partially because Constantinople had better defenses than Rome.

[Onegesius]

Why the Barbarian preferred to invade the Western Roman Empire? I'm talking about the period next the 395, when the Empire where divised between Arcadius and Onorius. I know that the West was in the "edge" of collapse, but why it was so much interesting for the Barbarians? Why they didn't choose the East, nearer than the the western territory??
Of course I talk about a full-scale invasion, not exactly like the Visigoths that after Adrianople sacked the Greece and then went to West. Waiting for you answers : )

As it was previously explained, the Barbarians preferred to invade and immigrate to wherever they had any chance; the Huns and the Germanic peoples actually attacked both Empires.

The East survived the fifth century for other reasons, presumably at least partially because Constantinople had better defenses than Rome.

As a matter of tactics, easyer pickings

[Centurion-Macro]

I think because the West was already in decay. The Western Empire was easier pickings for the barbarians because the West was getting weaker and weaker. The West had been defending against barbarians for years, and it finally took the toll around 250AD onwards.
They were attacked by Picts and Saxons in Britain, Gaul etc was being attacked by German tribes who were fleeing from the Huns. Constantinople was a newer city with newer defenses, and was able to stand up to attack. Rome was not.

In my opinion it was because of Romes weakness and the Huns.

[caldrail]

Money. The German tribes wanted their slice of the action. There were tax initiatives in the late empire to encourage Germans to settle in Roman lands for the purposes of bringing them into the Roman fold and using them as reinforcements for their shrinking recruitment pool. There were also a number of tribes who weren't invited and saw the lands south of the river as wealthier than their own temperate rainforests and heathland. They were right. It was. Not just because of rural success, which was sometimes under strain due to military recruitment, but also because as the empire drew to a close there was a tendency for rural communities to opt out of governmental control, thus avoiding taxes and the draft.

[Kosmo]

I think that the invaders wanted to plunder or/and to became an elite in roman lands rather then becoming peasants and local militia.

[sylla]

Arguably, all along universal History the reasons from hostile neighbors to invade each other have remained essentially the same.
Meroveo's original question was on why the West was invaded more frequently than the East, and my best guess is still that it wasn't so; as far as I can tell, both empires were equally attacked by Germanics and Huns.

I think because the West was already in decay. The Western Empire was easier pickings for the barbarians because the West was getting weaker and weaker. The West had been defending against barbarians for years, and it finally took the toll around 250AD onwards.

That is indeed a common explanation. Depending mostly on the operational definition, evidence of "decay" can usually be found for the V century Western Roman Empire (and BTW, for the late Julio-Claudian period too). The main problem for that line of argumentation is that virtually all the evidence of decay of the West was equally present in the East.

This post has been edited by sylla: Oct 26 2009, 03:03 AM

[Northern Neil]

Arguably, all along universal History the reasons from hostile neighbors to invade each other have remained essentially the same.
Meroveo's original question was on why the West was invaded more frequently than the East, and my best guess is still that it wasn't so; as far as I can tell, both empires were equally attacked by Germanics and Huns.

I think because the West was already in decay. The Western Empire was easier pickings for the barbarians because the West was getting weaker and weaker. The West had been defending against barbarians for years, and it finally took the toll around 250AD onwards.

That is indeed a common explanation. Depending mostly on the operational definition, evidence of "decay" can usually be found for the V century Western Roman Empire (and BTW, for the late Julio-Claudian period too). The main problem for that line of argumentation is that virtually all the evidence of decay of the West was equally present in the East.

This is largely true; however, the towns of Gaul and Hispania never really recovered after the barbarian forays of the 3rd century, whereas urban centres enjoyed a flowering in the East from about 300 to 500. Thus, the tax base of the West was severely eroded compared to that of the East, resulting in the shrinkage of the Army proper after 406 and increasing reliance on foederatii whose land grants in return for service eroded the tax base further still.

[sylla]

It seems this thread is now trying to explain why the West fell and the East didn't.

This is largely true; however, the towns of Gaul and Hispania never really recovered after the barbarian forays of the 3rd century,...

I suppose you mean "late IV century" for Gaul and "V century" for Hispania.

... whereas urban centres enjoyed a flowering in the East from about 300 to 500 ...

As far as I know, the territories occupied and/or plundered by the invaders were basically equally forayed in both sides of the Empire.
On the other hand, it seems the non-invaded territories (again in both sides) were as a whole barely surviving and hardly "flowering" by any objective measure, especially the urban centres.

... Thus, the tax base of the West was severely eroded compared to that of the East, resulting in the shrinkage of the Army proper after 406 and increasing reliance on foederatii whose land grants in return for service eroded the tax base further still.

Foederati were widely used by both sides of the Empire, and in the East for a long time after the Fall of the West.
I tend to agree with Ward-Perkins; the erosion of the tax base would have been the main cause, not the effect of the shrinkage (and even worse, rebellion) of the army (either "proper" or "non-proper").

Ward-Perkins set the significant tax erosion of the West a generation later, ie. after the Vandal conquest of Africa.
This seems to me to be an excellent explanation for a differential factor, because the main sources of taxes for the East (Egypt, Asia & Syria) were left essentially untouched by the invasions.

This post has been edited by sylla: Oct 26 2009, 11:10 PM

[Northern Neil]

It seems this thread is now trying to explain why the West fell and the East didn't.

This is largely true; however, the towns of Gaul and Hispania never really recovered after the barbarian forays of the 3rd century,...

I suppose you mean "late IV century" for Gaul and "V century" for Hispania.

No, I refer here specifically to Barbarians crossing the limes in the mid 3rd century. This resulted in walls being thrown up around the centres of towns, the extremities of which whithered away due to the prevailing state of insecurity. Thereafter the towns of Gaul, with the exceptions perhaps of Arles and Trier, became little more than fortified posts, as the economy and population in the area declined.

The question as to why the west fell and the East didn't is an interesting tangential point which naturally arises when one discusses the West's growing inability to maintain the Rhine and Danube limes.

[sylla]

It seems this thread is now trying to explain why the West fell and the East didn't.

This is largely true; however, the towns of Gaul and Hispania never really recovered after the barbarian forays of the 3rd century,...

I suppose you mean "late IV century" for Gaul and "V century" for Hispania.

No, I refer here specifically to Barbarians crossing the limes in the mid 3rd century. This resulted in walls being thrown up around the centres of towns, the extremities of which whithered away due to the prevailing state of insecurity. Thereafter the towns of Gaul, with the exceptions perhaps of Arles and Trier, became little more than fortified posts, as the economy and population in the area declined.

The question as to why the west fell and the East didn't is an interesting tangential point which naturally arises when one discusses the West's growing inability to maintain the Rhine and Danube limes.

This seems to be a bit out of proportion; not all nomad raids across History have annihilated countries, even less civilizations.
Just remember the Marcomannic Wars of the II century AD.
The Empire as a whole was heavily impacted by the Crisis of the third century, but even the West thrieved for more than two additional centuries.
Even if some raids went as far as Tarraco, Hispania was essentially left untouched.
Gaul seems to have had a nice economic recovery and even prosperity for the IV century by most archaeological indicators I'm aware of.
Their population was certainly declining, but probably not much more than the average for the whole empire.
Besides, their condition was in all likelihood analogous to the plundered cities of the Balkans, which nevertheless survived under the eastern rule.
That's entirely different from the Germanic conquests of the fifth century, when virtually all material evidence of the Roman administration disappeared after no more than a generation.
Presumably a radical difference was that the Germanic invaders of the III century plundered, while in the V century they conquered.
And of course, two hundred plus years were probably too long to be considered an agony process; after all, most modern countries have currently lasted less than that.

The following description of the Gallic cities by Ammenius Marcellinus was for the middle IV century (Res Gestae 15:11):

"... For the Aquitanians, to whose shores, as being nearest and also pacific, foreign merchandise is abundantly imported... the whole extent of the country is portioned out into many provinces.
The second (or lower) Germany is the first, if you begin on the western side, fortified by Cologne and Tongres, both cities of great wealth and importance.
Next comes the first (or high) Germany, in which, besides other municipal towns, there is Mayence, and Worms, and Spiers, and Strasburg, a city celebrated for the defeats sustained by the barbarians in its neighbourhood.
After these the first Belgic province stretches as far as Metz and Treves, which city is the splendid abode of the chief governor of the country.
Next to that comes the second Belgic province, where we find Amiens, a city of conspicuous magnificence, and Chalons, and Rheims.
In the province of the Sequani, the finest cities are Besancon and Basle.
The first Lyonnese province contains Lyons, Chalons, Sens, Bourges, and Autun, the walls of which are very extensive and of great antiquity.
In the second Lyonnese province are Tours, and Rouen, Evreux, and Troyes.
The Grecian and Penine Alps have... Avenche, a city which indeed is now deserted, but which was formerly one of no small importance, as even now is proved by its half-ruinous edifices...
In Aquitania ... the first province is Aquitanica, very rich in large and populous cities; passing over others, I may mention as pre-eminent, Bordeaux, Clermont, Saintes, and Poictiers.
The province called the Nine Nations is enriched by Ausch and Bazas.
In the province of Narborme, the cities of Narbonne, Euses, and Toulouse are the principal places of importance.
The Viennese exults in the magnificence of many cities, the chief of which are Vienne itself, and Arles, and Valence; to which may be added Marseilles...
And near to these cities is also Aix, Nice, Antibes, and the islands of Ilieres."

This post has been edited by sylla: Oct 28 2009, 04:04 AM