[Segestan]

Welcome.


Pelasgians,
the people who occupied Greece before the 12th century BC. The name was used only by ancient Greeks. The Pelasgi were mentioned as a specific people by several Greek authors, including Homer, Herodotus, and Thucydides, and were said to have inhabited various areas, such as Thrace, Argos, Crete, and Chalcidice. In the 5th century BC the surviving villages apparently preserved a common non-Greek language.
It is uncertain whether any ancient people actually called themselves Pelasgi. In later Greek usage their name was applied to all “aboriginal” Aegean populations.

Are you seeking more info along the lines of Creuzer?
Symbolik und Mythologie der alten Völker, besonders der Griechen

To my knowledge: Mycenaean’s were of Phoenician stock. Mycenaean was another Phoenician colony as was Thebes. It was the Theban’s and their kin folk the Mycenaean’s who lead the attack on Troy; across the much coveted Hellespont.

Regards,

[Lacertus]

Pelasgians

and here too

Generally there are many legends about pelasgians. One of them is about very long life interval (more then 200 years) of this nation. But I think it was related with calendar's features of pelasgians. One of the theory said that the year of pelasgians was equal to interval between harvests. In this case their long life is really possible. I know Homer mentioned in passing about this nation.

[Pantagathus]

Herr Saltzman, on Sep 4 2005, 11:51 PM, said:

Could anyone tell me everything they know about the Pelasgians? Particularly, were the Mycenaeans Pelasgian, mainly Pelasgian but ruled by a Hellenic warrior aristocracy, or entirely un-Pelasgic?

Cheers,
Herr Saltzman

"Pelasgi
(Pelasgoi).

A name given to the earliest (prehistoric) inhabitants of Greece. In Homer the name applied now to a people in Asia Minor dwelling near Ilium ( Il.ii. 840), and now to people inhabiting various parts of Greece. Thus, Argos is called Pelasgian (id ii. 681), and the god worshipped at Dodona is the “Pelasgian” Zeus (id. xvi. 233). Pelasgians are also spoken of as dwelling in Crete (Odyss. xix. 177). Herodotus tells us that the earliest name that Greece bore was Pelasgia, and ascribes a Pelasgic origin to some of the Greek peoples, as the Arcadians, Athenians, Aeolians, etc. (cf. Herod.i. 146; vii. 94Herod., 95; viii. 44). He draws a definite distinction between the Pelasgi and the Hellenes proper, as being different in both race and language (i. 56, 58). Thucydides agrees with Herodotus, and goes a step further in identifying them with the Tyrrheni. He also mentions them as found in the island of Lemnos, on which see the article Etruria, p. 625.

Modern scholars, in general, regard the Pelasgi as a prehistoric people, probably non-Aryan in their racial affinities, and possibly to be identified with the same branch as the Etruscans, who came to Greece from Asia at a period earlier than that of the Indo-European migration. Still others use the name as designating the Indo-Europeans before the time of their separation into Greeks and Italians. To them are usually ascribed certain religious cults, which are in their origin non-Hellenic, such as that of the Cabeiri (q.v.) and of Zeus at Dodona; and also the architectural remains popularly called Cyclopean. The ancient authorities on the subject of the Pelasgi are collected by Bruck in his monograph Quae Veteres de Pelasgis Tradiderunt (1884). See also Eissner, Die Alten Pelasger (Leipzig, 1825); Hesselmeyer, Die Pelasgerfrage; Flor, Zur Geschichte der Pelasger (1859); and the articles Cyclopes; Hellas; Indo-European Languages; Mycenae. "

-Harry Thurston Peck, 'Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities' (1898)

[Marcus_Aurelius]

In my opinion the Pelasgians were a neolithic Civilzation,they knew quite little about war and they were easily defeated by the warlike Hellenic tribes.I suppose they were no taller than 1.50 as much of the pre indo-european people were short.They surely were peaceful people as they weren't very interested in private properties(as the private property is the reason of 99% of wars).

[Silentium]

Quote

Modern scholars, in general, regard the Pelasgi as a prehistoric people, probably non-Aryan in their racial affinities, and possibly to be identified with the same branch as the Etruscans, who came to Greece from Asia at a period earlier than that of the Indo-European migration. Still others use the name as designating the Indo-Europeans before the time of their separation into Greeks and Italians. To them are usually ascribed certain religious cults, which are in their origin non-Hellenic, such as that of the Cabeiri (q.v.) and of Zeus at Dodona; and also the architectural remains popularly called Cyclopean.

Exactly. Some people identify them with the Caucasian/Asian populations who settled in Italy and Greece and think they probably had the same origins as the Etruscans. Others think the Etruscans themselves later emigrated to Greece, but there are so many theories concerning the migrations of the italic populations and even the origins of the Romans that I tend not to take anything for granted. If people from northern Italy still call themselves “Insubri”, “Olumbri” and “Vilumbri”, can I really call myself Pelasgian? =) lol back to serious discussion. Pelasgians ruins can be found in Volterra, Fiesole, Cortona, Alatri, Verula, Fermentino, Preneste, Terracina, and even Roma. Vesta is a Pelasgian deity, [from Cabeiri, which, in fact, were also worshipped by the Etruscans] but we don’t have enough evidence to prove anything, we don’t know if the Pelasgians simply mixed with the Etruscans or they really had common origins, and we can’t say with precision whether or not the inhabitants of the first “human” settlements in Roma were Pelasgians. So much has been said about the Etruscans as well, but their origins are as mysterious as the ones of the Romans. I tried to search as many sources as I could because I was interested in finding out the true origins of the inhabitants of central Italy in the pre-roman era, but they all had different theories (most of them were rather improbable) and very few tangible proofs to support them (and I’m a doubting Thomas). Nevertheless the subject is very interesting.

[Ursus]

Silentium, on Sep 12 2005, 08:41 AM, said:

Vesta is a Pelasgian deity, [from Cabeiri, which, in fact, were also worshipped by the Etruscans]

Most scholars trace Vesta and her Hellenic counterpart Hestia back to a Proto-Indo-European goddess of sacred fire.

[Silentium]

Ursus, on Sep 12 2005, 10:26 PM, said:

Most scholars trace Vesta and her Hellenic counterpart Hestia back to a Proto-Indo-European  goddess of sacred fire.

Ursus I have a little interrogatio. From what geographical area did this cult first spread? Did it develop simultaneously in more geographical areas? Was it imported by some prehistoric population?

[Pantagathus]

Herr Saltzman, on Sep 4 2005, 11:51 PM, said:

Particularly, were the Mycenaeans Pelasgian, mainly Pelasgian but ruled by a Hellenic warrior aristocracy, or entirely un-Pelasgic?

Cheers,
Herr Saltzman

It would seem that we haven't answered one of your main quetions. If one accepts that the 'Cyclopean' architecture is in fact of Pelasgian origin, then by that deduction it would seem likely that the Mycenaeans were in fact mostly Pelasgians...

[diegis]

The most interesting info about pelasgians(and most controversial) is the story about Atlantida, write by Platon.In this writing, a personage tell a story heard from Solon, who, himself, know about this from an old egiptian priest.The story say that some 11 000 years ago(9000 BC ), an invazion of Atlantida peoples was reject by athenians ancestors.This was before the Atlantida disaper under a great cataclism.This athenians ancestors was pelasgians,because in that times greeks dont exist.Platon tell about their society,spread in castes,wariors,agricultors and handicrafts.The wariors cast live separately,in their own fort,and was composed by a nomber of 20 000 fighters,an equal nomber of men and women.Pausanias say that <pelasgian was born by the black earth to be the beginer of human race>. Unfortunately,the prouve of Atlantida existance and this wars was not found yet(like prouves about Troia), but there is some archeological prouves of existance of a high civilization(for that times) in south east Europe and so called Asia Minor(today Romania ,Serbia, Bulgaria ,Greece, Creta island, Turkey and even Palestina,and this was probably the pelasgians.Before the aparition of indo-european tribes(there is some opinions that indo-european was in fact european tribes who just start migration from Black Sea region in all directions)in this region was developed some interesting cultures( so called by american historian Maria Gimbutas <old european culture>),like Lepenskii Vir-Schela Cladovei culture,Vinca-Turda culture,Cucuteni Culture, and others.The most interesting discovery in this cultures was the Tablets from Tartaria,considered by ones scientists the first write of human,older with 1000 years than first sumerian tablets.Warever,here was the metalurgical center of Europe(and probably of world), with first metal object made, from copper.Unfortunately,some natural disasters put in shadow this civilization.3-4 milenium BC,the black Sea was separated from Med.Sea by a rock relief.After a great earthquick the rock was crushed and Medit.Sea debouch into Black Sea and flood all the souronding areas,combined with a devastating rain, who, acording with Platon, wash the earth on actual Greece,and let just stones.The Creta island was destroyed too later by a vulcan eruption,and,unfortunately,probably many archeological foundings was disaper in this catastrophies, and we know such few things about this civilization.

[Pantagathus]

Diegis,

I could go on and on in regards to what you brought up. In fact, I think the more one investigates the issue, the less controversial it really is.

Ever since reading Mary Settegast's book 'Plato Prehistorian' I've looked at pre Bronze Age Europe in a different light and have investigated many aspects of the autochthous' peoples around the Mediteranian. What I've come accross continues to facinate me because it really does seem to support Plato's Critias account.

One of the most compelling things I've come across regards various aspects of Hercules & Hermes. Both are originally of Pelasgian origin. Both have a myth relating to the theft of cattle; Hermes' first mythic act was the theft of Apollo's cattle as an infant and Hercules' 10th labor was to steal Geryon's cattle in Iberia.

When I was looking at one black figure vase depiction of Hercules fighting Geryon, I was stuck by one thing. Instead of his usual lion skin, he was wearing a spotted leopard skin that was remarkablly reminicant of the Catal Huyuk (7th-5th Millennia BC) depictions of bearded men clad in leopard skins surrounding either a stag or bull.

In fact, the mythic battle between Hercules & Geryon may be an extremely clear, concise summary of the west–east conflict of the Critias. I suggest the cattle obviously represent the food resource these people were in competition over. Geryon as the monstrous offspring of the rich Iberian King Khrysaor (The Golden Sword); who just happens to be the son of Poseidon is representative of the Atlantics. Finally, Hercules the mighty underdog sent on this daunting task is the representation of the Ur-Athenians and emerges victorious just like in the Critias.

The people of Catal Huyuk venerated the bull and many scholars firmly believe that the Pelasgians were ancestors of those pre Indo-European, Anatolan people who were in turn ancestors of Plato's Ur-Athens post deluge.

Apollodorus said that Homer calls Zeus 'Pelasgian' "because he is not far from every one of us".

Very facinating people indeed.

[Onasander]

Hmmm, If I had a non-copywrited map, we could list all the supposed sites of the Pelasgians and try to figure out what their territory as well as internal economy looked like.

[Ursus]

Silentium, on Sep 13 2005, 02:29 PM, said:

Ursus, on Sep 12 2005, 10:26 PM, said:

Most scholars trace Vesta and her Hellenic counterpart Hestia back to a Proto-Indo-European  goddess of sacred fire.

Ursus I have a little interrogatio. From what geographical area did this cult first spread? Did it develop simultaneously in more geographical areas? Was it imported by some prehistoric population?

The Indo-Europeans came from somewhere in the former Soviet Union. Several homelands are theorized, but I think the most common is somewhere behind the Black Sea.


Zeus, Demeter, Poseidon, Hestia and a few others in the Greco-Roman pantheon can be reasonably traced to this reconstructed Proto-Indo-European culture. The gods of the Indo-European immigrants would have blended alongside the gods of the native Mediterranean inhabitants, and even later gods from the Orient would have been imported. All these deities from different sources were later merged into a pantheon by the poets and mystics, where it was said they were all somehow related or subservient to Zeus, the Indo-European sky god.

[Silentium]

Yes..I was wondering that because I recently read an essay by someone in which he wrote a lot of rather improbable theories about Vesta and the Etruscan Pantheon..(in a desperate attempt to demonstrate the common Pelasgian origin of certain Greeks and the Etruscans, due to the fact that the Etruscan alphabet was similar to the archaic Greek one). Besides, as far as I know the Etruscan language was non Indo-European, whereas the [classic] Greek is Indo-European. I'm sure that's revisionism. At first I thought his argumentations were quite convincing, that's why I asked about the simultaneous spread of the cult, but later comparing other sources it came out how wrong that whole text is. Vesta's origins can't be non Indo-European.. I'd like to slap myself for taking that stuff seriously lol. I should stop reading that sort of stuff and surrender to the fact the origins of the Etruscans are unknown.

[Ursus]

The Etruscans were to some degree Hellenized, and their gods are similar to Hellenic gods. The Hellenized Etruscan religion did exercise an influence on early Rome.

I too would like to know the ultimate origins of the Etruscans. If they came from Asia Minor perhaps there is some truth in the Aeneas myth. :blink: