[LEG X EQ]

The Lombards were a West-Germanic tribe that originated from scandinavia (south-west sweden), they left scandinavia under their leader Ibor. The terms were to conquer new lands. They settled in the lower elbe region (north-west germany). The name LOMBARD is the english version of the original german name, "LANGOBARDEN". Langobarden means "Long Beards". The myth goes that the Winniler (lombards) were facing an army twice the size oh theirs. The winnilers believed in the Nordic Gods, and so they prayed to WOTAN (odin), wotan replied that he would grant victory to those, whose name he will call out first at the battle field. The Winniler women than prayed to FREYJA (wife of wotan), Freayja replied, that the women should tie their hairs infront of their faces. At the battle field, wotan saw the winniler women, and was puzzled, what he saw were females with facial hair, so he asked his wife, "who are these longbeards" freyja replied,"you called out their name out, now grant them victory" . From there on the Winniler were Langobards (longbeards,lombards). The Lombards were great warriors and won alot of battles, a historic battle was fought in this region against the Vandals, and the vandals were crushed, this is the battle the myth is reffering to. The region (harburg-Lüneburg (north germany) is still called today, BARDENGAU , and there is a town called BARDOWICK, reffering to the Langobarden.
The Lombards were considered by other germanic tribes as one of the most strongest, by tacitus the roman, they were considered THE strongest germanic tribe.The Lombards were only defeated by the romans and forced to settle further south east of the elbe river. 166 ad. The Lombards Re-Entered Roman ground (whats today Lower Austria) 490 ad. they moved to Pannonia and completely destroyed the Heruli Kingdom of Rudolf. Along with the huns, other north iranian warrior tribes came to europe, AVARS entered pannonia, and made a deal with the Langobards, to help them destroy the Gepid kingdom , but than to leave pannonia.
The Gepids (germanic tribe) famous for defeating Attilas Huns. Were defeated by the Lombards, and subjected to the Lombard tribe. The King who defeated the Gepids was the great Lombard King Alboin. Alboin killed Kunimund (king of the gepids) with his own hands, and made Rosamunde(kunimunds daughter) his wife. It is said that on their wedding dinner , Alboin made Rosamunde drink wine out of the skull of her father. Alboin kept his promise to the Avars, and assembled all his men and women and children, those of the gepids + 50000 saxons and thüringer(both germanic tribes) (with kids and wifes) and also a small portion of bulgars (north iranian people:same as avars) and moved with them to Italy in 568 ad. The bulgars were parked of in southern italy (benevento north west of naples) under their leader Alcik. Italy especially the north was well known to the Lombards, since they fought successfully side by side with the byzantines against the east goths a couple of decades ago. The Mass Majority of Lombards settled in North and North west Italy (whats todays region LOMBARDY and the province of Verona). They made Pavia(also in lombardy) their capital. The other Germanics were scattered across northern Italy. The Lombards and the rest of the germanics were of Arian Christian Faith, but turned Catholic Christian later on. North Italy was Ruled by the Lombards with great kings, Authari was able to crush the Frank-Byzantine union threatening the Lombard kingdom. Arioald, went into a successful germanic union with the Frank King Dagobert I. to defeat the Slavs in bohemia.
Desiderius was the last Lombard king and was defeated by Karlmann in 774, Karlmann made Norhern Italy part of the Frank Kingdom, and called it Kingdom of Franks and Lombards. Later on a civil war enviroment errupted in northern italy, with the Guelphs (Pope Loyal) and the Ghibellines (Emperor Loyal of the Holy roman empire) . Friedrich Barbarossa, Emperor of the holy roman empire decide to reign over rome and the papacy and intsalled an Anti pope. The Milanese, Veronese and other northern Italians created The LEGA LOMBARDA (lombard league/Lombarden Bund) and defeated Friedrich Barbarossa in the Battle of Legnano 1176. and ended his reign in northern italy.

The Crown of the Lombards is also very interesting:
The Iron Crown of Lombardy is so called from a narrow band of iron within it, said to be beaten out of one of the nails used at the (jesus) Crucifixion. This very thin band is about one centimeter (three-eighths of an inch) broad. According to tradition, the nail was first given to Emperor Constantine by his mother Helena, who discovered the Cross. How it fell into the hands of the Lombard kings is not well explained. The outer circlet of the crown is of six gold and enamel segments of beaten gold, joined together by hinges and set with precious stones that stand out in relief, in the form of crosses and flowers.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
La Corona Ferrea (In Italian)
Order of the Iron Crown
Coat-of-Arms of Napoleonic Kingdom of Italy, 1805–1815, with the Iron Crown on an escutcheon
E. Cobham Brewer, Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, 1898.

The IRON CROWN of LOMBARDY is today at the cathedral treasures in Monza(suburb of Milan).

IRON CROWN of LOMBARDY
http://www.rodaun.in...isernekrone.jpg
LOMBARDS move to North Italy
http://www.1200.otto...bilder/rom4.jpg
German book about Lombards (dont get irretated about "die" its "the" in german)
http://www.antikmakler.de/catalog/images/b.../BMA/BMA104.jpg
Map of todays LOMBARDY (north italy)
http://www.take-koet...i_landkarte.jpg
http://www.travelpla...g/lombardia.jpg
Lombard Metallurgy and atchitecture in North Italy
http://covers.dvd.im...com/6/22516.png
http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/kimgdata/3.../3800414511.jpg
A Lombard helmet
http://www.brian-zim...ger-all-014.jpg

So no missunderstandigs come up, i wrote the text, just the part of the Iron Crown is from Wikipedia.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

LEG X EQ, on Nov 22 2005, 08:34 PM, said:

The Crown of the Lombards is also very interesting:
The Iron Crown of Lombardy is so called from a narrow band of iron within it, said to be beaten out of one of the nails used at the (jesus) Crucifixion. This very thin band is about one centimeter (three-eighths of an inch) broad. According to tradition, the nail was first given to Emperor Constantine by his mother Helena, who discovered the Cross. How it fell into the hands of the Lombard kings is not well explained. The outer circlet of the crown is of six gold and enamel segments of beaten gold, joined together by hinges and set with precious stones that stand out in relief, in the form of crosses and flowers.


So no missunderstandigs come up, i wrote the text, just the part of the Iron Crown is from Wikipedia.

I'm pretty sure, but it was more likely that the nail Helena gave to Constantine was actually put in the Spear of Longinus, not some Lombard crown, though that can happen.
But anyways, good info digging LEG X EG, I would read your posts anytime. By the way, what was this anti-pope that Barbarossa established?

[Tobias]

"In June 1158, Frederick set out upon his second Italian expedition, accompanied by Henry the Lion and his fearsome Saxons, which resulted in the establishment of imperial officers in the cities of northern Italy, the revolt and capture of Milan, and the beginning of the long struggle with Pope Alexander III, which resulted in the excommunication of the emperor in 1160. In response, Frederick declared his support for Antipope Victor IV."-Via Wikipedia

Babarossa pretty much wanted the wholehearted support of the Papacy (i.e. a puppet pope) to justify his actions to the Christians of Italy and his other territories. When Alexander III refused to do so, Babarossa became annoyed an installed his own pope. Both popes of course promptly excommunicated each other :D, and this caused further disruption for Babarossa.

This post has been edited by Tobias: 23 November 2005 - 04:39 AM

[LEG X EQ]

@Tobias
Exactly, Victor IV was the "Anti" pope. There was another key moment in the whole scenario, and that was when Frederick I. Barbarossa (friedrich in german) attacked Alessandria, a city in north italy named after the pope. That attack basically ignited the whole ghibelline - guelph conflict.


This is a good site about Lombards, its an Milanese reenact group. This site Lists all the Battles and wars of the Lombards. But its in italian. so only italian or spanish speakers can fully understand it.

http://www.winniler.net/guerre.html




thanks for the replies.

[LEG X EQ]

@Tobias
After the defeat of the lombard kings North Italy was ruled by the holy roman emperors.
It wasnt really about what Barbarossa did to the christians, since he was a strong believer himselve (later died in the crusades). he really didnt do anything against the christians. he just wanted total control of both State and church. With that he demanded that the city of rome and the Vatican states should be ruled by him. This demand was met with outrage by pope Alexander III. Pope Alexander III called for uprisings against the emperor. That, and the attack of Alessandria were the main reasons for the split up between Pope Loyals (Guelphs) and Emperor Loyals (Ghibellines). propably in 1172 the Lega Lombarda was created, a Guelph Union of northern Italian Fighters and Knights. The lega won the battle of urbino 1174 against an Northern italian ghibelline army. And in 1176 the Lega Lombarda under command of Alberto Da Giussano, met Fredericks massive army at Legnano (suburb milan). Lega Lombarda were Milanese, Veronese and Bergamask Knights, Farmers and Veterans. The Rule of Frederick ended at Legnano were he was completely defeated. The Victory of the Lega Lombarda left Frederick with nothing, Barbarossa who wanted everything now had nothing, no control over state or church in northern italy.

@FLavius Valerius Constantinus
Im not quite sure if we mean the same thing, but isnt the spear of Longinus (Heilige Lanze in german) the spear that the roman centurion (longinus) used to check if Jesus Blood already became watery by stabbing him in the ribs? it could be that we mean two different things, but th Iron Crown of Lombardy is presumably made by the NAIL that pierced Jesus right hand on the cross. The crown is not just "some" crown :D , this crown is considered sacred by all Christian Churches, and it is said that no rust ever appeard on the iron.

[LEG X EQ]

@Frumentario
Thanks for that information, but are you sure that the iron crown was made in costantinople, because the decoration and art on the crown is germanic, with refferences to Lombard fibles.

[Favonius Cornelius]

The Lombard crown, does it still exist?

[LEG X EQ]

Yes, its kept in the treasures of the Monza(suburb of milan) Cathedral.

[Favonius Cornelius]

LEG X EQ, on Nov 28 2005, 06:41 PM, said:

Yes, its kept in the treasures of the Monza(suburb of milan) Cathedral.

Cool, have any links to a picture? Has it ever been determined that the crown does indeed have a band of iron in its center?

[LEG X EQ]

Just look at the Very first post, at the end I put a couple of links of pictures.

[Favonius Cornelius]

LEG X EQ, on Nov 28 2005, 07:31 PM, said:

Just look at the Very first post, at the end I put a couple of links of pictures.

Ah so you did, and I see the iron band as well. Is it known what year it was created? Talk about priceless artifact!

[rvmaximus]

LEG X EQ, on Nov 22 2005, 09:34 PM, said:

The Lombards were a West-Germanic tribe that originated from scandinavia (south-west sweden), they left scandinavia under their leader Ibor. The terms were to conquer new lands. They settled in the lower elbe region (north-west germany). The name LOMBARD is the english version of the original german name, "LANGOBARDEN". Langobarden means "Long Beards". The myth goes that the Winniler (lombards) were facing an army twice the size oh theirs. The winnilers believed in the Nordic Gods, and so they prayed to WOTAN (odin), wotan replied that he would grant victory to those, whose name he will call out first at the battle field. The Winniler women than prayed to FREYJA (wife of wotan), Freayja replied, that the women should tie their hairs infront of their faces. At the battle field, wotan saw the winniler women, and was puzzled, what he saw were females with facial hair, so he asked his wife, "who are these longbeards" freyja replied,"you called out their name out, now grant them victory" . From there on the Winniler were Langobards (longbeards,lombards). The Lombards were great warriors and won alot of battles, a historic battle was fought in this region against the Vandals, and the vandals were crushed, this is the battle the myth is reffering to. The region (harburg-Lüneburg (north germany) is still called today, BARDENGAU , and there is a town called BARDOWICK, reffering to the Langobarden.
The Lombards were considered by other germanic tribes as one of the most strongest, by tacitus the roman, they were considered THE strongest germanic tribe.The Lombards were only defeated by the romans and forced to settle further south east of the elbe river. 166 ad. The Lombards Re-Entered Roman ground (whats today Lower Austria) 490 ad. they moved to Pannonia and completely destroyed the Heruli Kingdom of Rudolf. Along with the huns, other north iranian warrior tribes came to europe, AVARS entered pannonia, and made a deal with the Langobards, to help them destroy the Gepid kingdom , but than to leave pannonia.
The Gepids (germanic tribe) famous for defeating Attilas Huns. Were defeated by the Lombards, and subjected to the Lombard tribe. The King who defeated the Gepids was the great Lombard King Alboin. Alboin killed Kunimund (king of the gepids) with his own hands, and made Rosamunde(kunimunds daughter) his wife. It is said that on their wedding dinner , Alboin made Rosamunde drink wine out of the skull of her father. Alboin kept his promise to the Avars, and assembled all his men and women and children, those of the gepids + 50000 saxons and thüringer(both germanic tribes) (with kids and wifes) and also a small portion of bulgars (north iranian people:same as avars) and moved with them to Italy in 568 ad. The bulgars were parked of in southern italy (benevento north west of naples) under their leader Alcik. Italy especially the north was well known to the Lombards, since they fought successfully side by side with the byzantines against the east goths a couple of decades ago. The Mass Majority of Lombards settled in North and North west Italy (whats todays region LOMBARDY and the province of Verona). They made Pavia(also in lombardy) their capital. The other Germanics were scattered across northern Italy. The Lombards and the rest of the germanics were of Arian Christian Faith, but turned Catholic Christian later on. North Italy was Ruled by the Lombards with great kings, Authari was able to crush the Frank-Byzantine union threatening the Lombard kingdom. Arioald, went into a successful germanic union with the Frank King Dagobert I. to defeat the Slavs in bohemia.
Desiderius was the last Lombard king and was defeated by Karlmann in 774, Karlmann made Norhern Italy part of the Frank Kingdom, and called it Kingdom of Franks and Lombards. Later on a civil war enviroment errupted in northern italy, with the Guelphs (Pope Loyal) and the Ghibellines (Emperor Loyal of the Holy roman empire) . Friedrich Barbarossa, Emperor of the holy roman empire decide to reign over rome and the papacy and intsalled an Anti pope. The Milanese, Veronese and other northern Italians created The LEGA LOMBARDA (lombard league/Lombarden Bund) and defeated Friedrich Barbarossa in the Battle of Legnano 1176. and ended his reign in northern italy.

The Crown of the Lombards is also very interesting:
The Iron Crown of Lombardy is so called from a narrow band of iron within it, said to be beaten out of one of the nails used at the (jesus) Crucifixion. This very thin band is about one centimeter (three-eighths of an inch) broad. According to tradition, the nail was first given to Emperor Constantine by his mother Helena, who discovered the Cross. How it fell into the hands of the Lombard kings is not well explained. The outer circlet of the crown is of six gold and enamel segments of beaten gold, joined together by hinges and set with precious stones that stand out in relief, in the form of crosses and flowers.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
La Corona Ferrea (In Italian)
Order of the Iron Crown
Coat-of-Arms of Napoleonic Kingdom of Italy, 1805–1815, with the Iron Crown on an escutcheon
E. Cobham Brewer, Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, 1898.

The IRON CROWN of LOMBARDY is today at the cathedral treasures in Monza(suburb of Milan).

IRON CROWN of LOMBARDY
http://www.rodaun.in...isernekrone.jpg
LOMBARDS move to North Italy
http://www.1200.otto...bilder/rom4.jpg
German book about Lombards (dont get irretated about "die" its "the" in german)
http://www.antikmakler.de/catalog/images/b.../BMA/BMA104.jpg
Map of todays LOMBARDY (north italy)
http://www.take-koet...i_landkarte.jpg
http://www.travelpla...g/lombardia.jpg
Lombard Metallurgy and atchitecture in North Italy
http://covers.dvd.im...com/6/22516.png
http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/kimgdata/3.../3800414511.jpg
A Lombard helmet
http://www.brian-zim...ger-all-014.jpg

So no missunderstandigs come up, i wrote the text, just the part of the Iron Crown is from Wikipedia.

LEG X EQ, on Nov 22 2005, 09:34 PM, said:

The Lombards were a West-Germanic tribe that originated from scandinavia (south-west sweden), they left scandinavia under their leader Ibor. The terms were to conquer new lands. They settled in the lower elbe region (north-west germany). The name LOMBARD is the english version of the original german name, "LANGOBARDEN". Langobarden means "Long Beards". The myth goes that the Winniler (lombards) were facing an army twice the size oh theirs. The winnilers believed in the Nordic Gods, and so they prayed to WOTAN (odin), wotan replied that he would grant victory to those, whose name he will call out first at the battle field. The Winniler women than prayed to FREYJA (wife of wotan), Freayja replied, that the women should tie their hairs infront of their faces. At the battle field, wotan saw the winniler women, and was puzzled, what he saw were females with facial hair, so he asked his wife, "who are these longbeards" freyja replied,"you called out their name out, now grant them victory" . From there on the Winniler were Langobards (longbeards,lombards). The Lombards were great warriors and won alot of battles, a historic battle was fought in this region against the Vandals, and the vandals were crushed, this is the battle the myth is reffering to. The region (harburg-Lüneburg (north germany) is still called today, BARDENGAU , and there is a town called BARDOWICK, reffering to the Langobarden.
The Lombards were considered by other germanic tribes as one of the most strongest, by tacitus the roman, they were considered THE strongest germanic tribe.The Lombards were only defeated by the romans and forced to settle further south east of the elbe river. 166 ad. The Lombards Re-Entered Roman ground (whats today Lower Austria) 490 ad. they moved to Pannonia and completely destroyed the Heruli Kingdom of Rudolf. Along with the huns, other north iranian warrior tribes came to europe, AVARS entered pannonia, and made a deal with the Langobards, to help them destroy the Gepid kingdom , but than to leave pannonia.
The Gepids (germanic tribe) famous for defeating Attilas Huns. Were defeated by the Lombards, and subjected to the Lombard tribe. The King who defeated the Gepids was the great Lombard King Alboin. Alboin killed Kunimund (king of the gepids) with his own hands, and made Rosamunde(kunimunds daughter) his wife. It is said that on their wedding dinner , Alboin made Rosamunde drink wine out of the skull of her father. Alboin kept his promise to the Avars, and assembled all his men and women and children, those of the gepids + 50000 saxons and thüringer(both germanic tribes) (with kids and wifes) and also a small portion of bulgars (north iranian people:same as avars) and moved with them to Italy in 568 ad. The bulgars were parked of in southern italy (benevento north west of naples) under their leader Alcik. Italy especially the north was well known to the Lombards, since they fought successfully side by side with the byzantines against the east goths a couple of decades ago. The Mass Majority of Lombards settled in North and North west Italy (whats todays region LOMBARDY and the province of Verona). They made Pavia(also in lombardy) their capital. The other Germanics were scattered across northern Italy. The Lombards and the rest of the germanics were of Arian Christian Faith, but turned Catholic Christian later on. North Italy was Ruled by the Lombards with great kings, Authari was able to crush the Frank-Byzantine union threatening the Lombard kingdom. Arioald, went into a successful germanic union with the Frank King Dagobert I. to defeat the Slavs in bohemia.
Desiderius was the last Lombard king and was defeated by Karlmann in 774, Karlmann made Norhern Italy part of the Frank Kingdom, and called it Kingdom of Franks and Lombards. Later on a civil war enviroment errupted in northern italy, with the Guelphs (Pope Loyal) and the Ghibellines (Emperor Loyal of the Holy roman empire) . Friedrich Barbarossa, Emperor of the holy roman empire decide to reign over rome and the papacy and intsalled an Anti pope. The Milanese, Veronese and other northern Italians created The LEGA LOMBARDA (lombard league/Lombarden Bund) and defeated Friedrich Barbarossa in the Battle of Legnano 1176. and ended his reign in northern italy.

The Crown of the Lombards is also very interesting:
The Iron Crown of Lombardy is so called from a narrow band of iron within it, said to be beaten out of one of the nails used at the (jesus) Crucifixion. This very thin band is about one centimeter (three-eighths of an inch) broad. According to tradition, the nail was first given to Emperor Constantine by his mother Helena, who discovered the Cross. How it fell into the hands of the Lombard kings is not well explained. The outer circlet of the crown is of six gold and enamel segments of beaten gold, joined together by hinges and set with precious stones that stand out in relief, in the form of crosses and flowers.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
La Corona Ferrea (In Italian)
Order of the Iron Crown
Coat-of-Arms of Napoleonic Kingdom of Italy, 1805–1815, with the Iron Crown on an escutcheon
E. Cobham Brewer, Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, 1898.

The IRON CROWN of LOMBARDY is today at the cathedral treasures in Monza(suburb of Milan).

IRON CROWN of LOMBARDY
http://www.rodaun.in...isernekrone.jpg
LOMBARDS move to North Italy
http://www.1200.otto...bilder/rom4.jpg
German book about Lombards (dont get irretated about "die" its "the" in german)
http://www.antikmakler.de/catalog/images/b.../BMA/BMA104.jpg
Map of todays LOMBARDY (north italy)
http://www.take-koet...i_landkarte.jpg
http://www.travelpla...g/lombardia.jpg
Lombard Metallurgy and atchitecture in North Italy
http://covers.dvd.im...com/6/22516.png
http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/kimgdata/3.../3800414511.jpg
A Lombard helmet
http://www.brian-zim...ger-all-014.jpg

So no missunderstandigs come up, i wrote the text, just the part of the Iron Crown is from Wikipedia.

Very well documented! Interesting points. So the strongest of German tribes were the Lomabrds...thought I read something in Caesars writing that those in the Belgae area had that honor. So this makes Northern Italians really German? Rennasance more of a Geramn ethnic thing than Italic/Roman?

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Uh Rvmaximus, I think you're forgetting that these were two different time periods.

[LEG X EQ]

Quote

So this makes Northern Italians really German?

Wouldnt go that far. To claim ALL Northern Italians are of Germanic Blood. The Numbers of Langobards compared to the local Italic-Roman population was 3 to 1 for the Italics. So the Mass Majority was Romance.
The Langobards were the ones that addepted to Latin and to local customs. And the total Fusion was straining, but it eventually happend. The langobards influenced the Nothern Italian Romance culture with Architecture( The Romanic and Germanic element fused in Architectrure in Northern Italy) and Linguistics, the modern Milanese dialect and the southern Swiss dialect(Ticino) are Lombard dialects(fusion of the germanic dialect and Latin) and belong to the Romance Languages. There was no other ethnic fusion in Northern italy, except for that. But the Lombard germanic blood went up in the Romance blood. So modern North-Italians have a good size trace of Germanic Blood. And a lot of Northern Italian culture and architecture is Romanic-Langobard(germanic) fused.

There are further debates about ethnic fusion in europe. Especially in Spain. The spanish for the most part claim to be the direct decendents of the West-Goths. This theory upsetted most swedish nationalists, because they claim that they are the only decendents of the Goths. I also dont buy it, that the modern spaniard is of West-Gothic blood. Due to the fact that they have been conquered and ruled by the Moors (african/arabic moslems) for houndreds of years and that Madrid was founded by Moslems and the Moors had a huge influence as such, after the Gothic Kingdoms. and the Goths were pushed into Spain by the Franks, so not many goths survived the Frank battles in the First place.

Quote

Rennasance more of a Geramn ethnic thing than Italic/Roman?

well, the Renaissance was more Central italian(Tuscany) than North Italian. So it is Un-Disputed Italic. Although the Tuscan Royalties had a massive influence from the Carolingians. And i believe that Dante was half german, but not very sure. The whole notion is that the Romans layed the Foundation of Europe, with Road Building, Bridge Building, The unification of a written letter system, calenders, Building Cities etc. etc. and that the Germans, took the roman foundation to the next level, thats why the first German empire was called Holy ROMAN, as a tribute to the Romans. So the Roman and Germanic elemnt was always crossed.

This post has been edited by LEG X EQ: 22 December 2005 - 12:36 PM