The Nicaean Empire Options

[Emperor Goblinus]

From what I've read, the whole point of the Lascarid empire of Nicaea was to preserve Byzantine sulture and continuity until Constantinople could be reconquered. And it was also quite successful in recapturing some territory in Macedon and other places. However, if it had to, could it have lasted a long period of time, if the Latins had held onto Constantinople?

[Honorius]

i think it may have....and what i have read in a few books that it woudlve been better for the Empire of Nicea to not have captured Constantinople and john julius Norwich even says that the ottoman threat couldve been halted and that cosntantinople may never have fallen in 1453...

[Kosmo]

It's a far guess that!
Maybe they just exaust their power in vane attempts to reconquer Constantinopole.
They succeded to extend in Thracia, Macedonia and Epir before the return to the capital, so in every way they had to fight many opponents on two continents.

It's just amazing how rich and diverse was the political situation in the area between the fourth crusade and the ottoman advance!
Several byzantine states, several crusader states, many selgiuk emirs, several serb entities, bulgarians, albanians, valachians (romanians) Venetia, Genoa, Pisa, Aragon, mercenaries, mongols, armenians etc.
Everybody was there and this is how the renessance started in this melting pot of trade, war, culture and revolution that was brought under the stagnation of pax ottomanica.

[Caius Maxentius]

Maybe if Nicaea had remained separate, it would have sped up the end of the Byzantine world. From the Turkish perspective, the enemies would be divided and antagonistic to each other (Nicaea, the Latin Empire of Constantinope, Epirus, the Slavic states). "Divide and conquer" -- worked for the Turks as well as it worked for the Romans.

What was the demographic balance like? Did the Empire of Nicaea have a sufficient population base to withstand the Turkish advance? It seems unlikely.

[Honorius]

Maybe if Nicaea had remained separate, it would have sped up the end of the Byzantine world. From the Turkish perspective, the enemies would be divided and antagonistic to each other (Nicaea, the Latin Empire of Constantinope, Epirus, the Slavic states). "Divide and conquer" -- worked for the Turks as well as it worked for the Romans.

What was the demographic balance like? Did the Empire of Nicaea have a sufficient population base to withstand the Turkish advance? It seems unlikely.

i dont agree..... because recapturing constantinople forced the empire to fight on two fronts...

also im sure western anatolia was really populated... well atleast it wouldve stopped the ottomans from growing out of hand.

[Kosmo]

As I already said, they were already fighting on many fronts as they had a large teritory in Europe and were expanding in the islands. Recapturing Constantinopole was jus a stage in the expansion of the nicean emire in the area held before by Byzantium. Many areas held before 1204 were not recovered and some entities born after the crusade survived until the ottoman conquest (like Athens and Trapezunt).
A very interesting foot note was the rise of Thessaloniki

[Honorius]

What about the Morea? morea actually flourished in the late 15th century..

[Caius Maxentius]

(Caius Maxentius @ Mar 22 2006, 04:55 PM)

Maybe if Nicaea had remained separate, it would have sped up the end of the Byzantine world. From the Turkish perspective, the enemies would be divided and antagonistic to each other (Nicaea, the Latin Empire of Constantinope, Epirus, the Slavic states). "Divide and conquer" -- worked for the Turks as well as it worked for the Romans.

What was the demographic balance like? Did the Empire of Nicaea have a sufficient population base to withstand the Turkish advance? It seems unlikely.



i dont agree..... because recapturing constantinople forced the empire to fight on two fronts...

I don't understand what different it would have made if the move hadn't been made -- the Latin Empire of Constantinople and Nicaea were not allies. The Nicaean Empire would have been threatened on two fronts whether they took Constantinople or not.

[Kosmo]

Moreea was ruled by latins and was one of the last aquisitions made by the byzantines. Geographic location made it more safe from ottoman raids so it was a refuge for people (greeks and albanians) coming from the mainland Greece.
Mistra, the capital of Moreea, was an important cultural center in the last decades of the empire, but I have no ideea about the economic development in the area. I think it was mostly a agricultural society as most sea ports were in venetian hands.
An interesting note it's the fact that a italian historian was looking for the ruins of nearby Sparta in the last days of the Roman empire.