Romano-celts And Roman Britain Options

[Ursus]

A majority of people in the poll pinned to the top of the forum answered that "Celt" was the culture they would most like to see discussed on this forum.

We've had a few debates off and on about the Celts, but I was hoping we could get to something more involved and ongoing. Especially with some of the later generation additions to the forum, like Pertinax and Pantagathus, who have a good interest and knowledge base in the subject, it might prove fruitful.

As this is a Romanophile forum, I was hoping the emphasis would not be on the Celts in their own right, but their relations to the Roman world and particularly how they were influenced by Romanization after conquest. Southern Gaul and Northern Italy were so Romanzied as to leave only a few traces of Celtic heritage. I'm not sure how much research has been done on Roman Spain but it seems Romanization was about as efficient as in Gaul. It would seem to me then that Roman Britain would be the focus of the discussion. As Roman Britain is also an oustanding example of a military province, this could interest military buffs.

The discussion would focus on
1) History and Politics from Caesar's "invasion" to Honorius leaving the island to its own devices
2) Culture, language and religion - the mix of Roman and Celt into something truly "Celto-Roman"
3) The role of the Roman legions in Romanization

Not coincidently, a new book on Roman Britain is scheduled to be released in late April. It looks comprehensive and I have pre-ordered it: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/050005140...glance&n=283155

[Pertinax]

My personal interest coincides exactly with your suggestion Ursus-its actually the interaction of the CeltIberians with the Romanised world , and the cross cultural influences that occured.The role of the Legions in acculturation is exactly what I had hoped to discuss, in the context of our found evidence and analysis of same here in Britain.
De La Bedoyere is the Hadrian's Wall "guru", I have high hopes of this new publication, but I have no sight of it yet on Amazon UK.

Belay that comment! Its ordered!

This post has been edited by Pertinax: Apr 1 2006, 03:18 PM

[Ursus]

Good. Perhaps we can begin preliminary discussions now. More involved discussions can begin after the book has been published.


I'm also open to discussions of the historical and archaeological analysis of Authorian legend insofar as Arthur is theorized as a late Celto-Roman warlord. Althought that might best be a separate topic.

[Pertinax]

I was going to suggest Arthur as a likely separate thread ,given that the "Matter of Britain" (as the "return of the once and future king" is called) is both a sub-roman Brythonic historical "epoch" and quite distinctly a national legend.Might be best to keep Arthur in a "controlled zone" so posting doesnt become too romantic.

It would be good to see :

some "scene setting" from those clued up on the Venetii and the Roman "takeover " of their business interests and the importance of the security of the channel

the prequel of Celtiberian coastal contact perhaps

the Romanisation of the British tribal elites despite their actual resistance to Roman rule

The extent of actual roman influence in the remote extremities of the Isles (Pictii, Attacottii, Maeaetae (Kyle-Inverness -Aberdeen)).

The physical benefits of Roman urbanisation and import/export trades.

This would help me bring my long term photo cataloging project along the Wall (and associated museums) into a working focus.

[Ursus]

My copy of _Roman Britain_ will arrive soon. I believe I will post the eventual review here to help spark discussion.

[Pantagathus]

I'll do my best to sound off where appropriate.

I definitely think it's safe to say that a traveller would find Roman Britain very different from most other parts of the empire. I almost feel that it was more like Roman infrastructure was superimposed over the local landscape.

As we've said in other threads, why did Latin die out so quickly there? Other areas saw just as much invader activity in the late/post Roman period.

[Primus Pilus]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm posting without doing any sort of verification first... but weren't Roman settlements in Britannia largely a result of colonization and imported 'Romans' rather than incorporation of the locals. While southern Britannia was largely peaceful and clearly accepted the benefits of Roman society, did the people not retain a good deal of tribal organization in comparison to other parts of the empire?



[Edit]Allow me also to quickly edit myself... I did not mean to suggest that the local Britannic people were not incorporated at all, but I meant this in comparison to other provinces.

[Ursus]

I shall read the book before I answer those questions. :-)

[caldrail]

Britain was perhaps more of a co-operative society than a truly romanised part of the empire, something that survives in the mind-set of britons today I think. I also think this happened in the middle east too, though less so in africa. Despite the early success of Augustus in colonising germany, the germans rightly or wrongly decided that Arminius was the chappie to lead them and they threw away roman culture. How ironic it was that they then viewed Rome with envy in later centuries.

[Pertinax]

The book does give a fairly clear feeling that the Romano-British elite lived a life that the surrounding tribal societies could only aspire to by steady acculturation. The Celts were by no means unsophisticated in either technology, arts and culture but the Urban life was a dimensional leap in terms of societal organisation (and dare I say "means of production/distribution") . The British tribes were (at elite level) already Romanised despite themselves, in terms of desired consumables and fashions, indeed that acculturation being the steady corrosive pressure which drew Britain into the Roman world.
The mobilisation of industrial process and agricultural supply to facilitate the efficiency of the Legions and Auxilliae, are key strategic goals visible in Roman policy eg: the siting of the Wall and internal policing fortlets to protect grain supply areas held by the client Carvetii and Parisii, the exploitation of salt, copper and lead supplies.Id better shut up so I dont get in the way of Ursus' review

[Ursus]

Actually, Senator, I'm bogged down in work (despite the fact that I'm checking this at work) and haven't finished the book. If you want to beat me to a book review, feel free. I already have another review in queue for Viggen.

[Pertinax]

Actually, Senator, I'm bogged down in work (despite the fact that I'm checking this at work) and haven't finished the book. If you want to beat me to a book review, feel free. I already have another review in queue for Viggen.

Hmm....that being the case I might tackle this one and expand this pocket review
http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?showto...t=0&#entry32698
because its is pertinent as a detailed aside to the main work.