[Pertinax]

The technology of Pictish chariots constantly startles "moderns" , the use of specific ,appropriate woods for each part of the wheel construction (oak ,elm and ash) for maximun plyability and durability alongside lightweight (sprung) overall construction gives a very tough and manouverable vehicle. As the apex of warrior celebrity and prowess was (to many Celts also) the use and control of such vehicles this should not be that surprising, once again though the cult of individualism will have blunted the use of such a weapons platform as a strategic weapon.The use of small cob "ponies" is also not to be underestimated, the little beasts can turn on a sixpence and are very sure footed. As far as thrown missiles go , I can assure everyone that horse borne missile impact can be very accurate-as long as the horse is not kept at bay by countervailing missile fire.

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...si&img=1453

Here is a shot to give an idea of mount size-not a big animal at all, but tough and hardy. This is the sort of animal that the "enemy" would have utilised also.

[spittle]

Julius Ratus quote "I am pretty sure the Persians and Selucids used scythed chariots...."

My contention that no evidence exists of this practice comes entirely from Goldworthy. It would not be the first time an author was wrong so I am far from dogmatic in the belief of it.

To be honest I would prefer it if there was proof of cultures that used Scythed Chariots. Just the thought of them is exciting! I am remembering the scene from Gladiator when the female African gladiator is decapitated by the scythe on her own vehicle!

[caldrail]

I'm not so sure. I do remember seeing some stuff about egyptian chariots. Mind you, although potentially effective, scythed chariots have serious shortcomings because you would very easily injure your own side, and you need forward velocity for any appreciable effect.

[phil25]

There are several examples of New Kingdom chariots in the Cairo Museum - including those from Tutankhamun's tomb - none are scythed!! I am unaware of any reliefs or paintings from Egypt of such vehicles.

Phil

[WotWotius]

If a writer refers to certain nations using scythed chariots, it is not exactly conclusive evidence for their use in antiquity. For instance, Pomponius Mela (an obscure source) wrote that the Britons used scythed chariots in battle. This was thought to be true until recent excavations proved that this was not the case.

This post has been edited by WotWotius: 09 November 2006 - 05:28 PM

[caldrail]

phil25, on Nov 9 2006, 05:09 PM, said:

There are several examples of New Kingdom chariots in the Cairo Museum - including those from Tutankhamun's tomb - none are scythed!! I am unaware of any reliefs or paintings from Egypt of such vehicles.

Phil

Correct, I apologise for the error. On checking my sources I find it was the assyrians who experimented with such things. Whether they achieved widspread use is open to doubt as I suggested.

[DecimusCaesar]

Didn't Darius used scythed chariots against Alexander's army at Gaugamela? According to John Warry's book, Alexander's Campaigns: 334-323 BC, he did. He says:

"Darius threw in his scythe-wheeled chariots. They proved a fiasco, much in the manner of those other scythe-wheeled chariots which had fought three quarters of a century earlier for another Persian King at the Battle of Cunaxa."

He was reffering to the battle fought between the Persians and Xenophon's army of the Ten thousand. This goes to show that they were used in combat, but that they proved rather useless most of the time.

[Germanicus]

While I don't generaly go for wikipedia as a source - the article there on scythed chariots contains this quote from Xenophon:-

Quote

"The soldiers had got into the habit of collecting their supplies carelessly and without taking precautions. And there was one occasion when Pharnabazus, with 2 scythed chariots and about 400 cavalry, came on them when they were scattered all over the plain. When the Greeks saw him bearing down on them, they ran to join up with each other, about 700 altogether; but Pharnabazus did not waste time. Putting the chariots in front, and following behind them himself with the cavalry, he ordered a charge. The chariots dashing into the Greek ranks, broke up their close formation, and the cavalry soon cut down about a hundred men. The rest fled and took refuge with Agesilaus, who happened to be close at hand with the hoplites.” (Xenophon Hellenica IV,1,17-19)

[Rameses the Great]

Was the beginning of the chariot used by Hittites or Assyrians? I'm starting to think the Hyksos used them first, anyone know?

[Pantagathus]

Rameses the Great, on Nov 13 2006, 07:46 PM, said:

Was the beginning of the chariot used by Hittites or Assyrians? I'm starting to think the Hyksos used them first, anyone know?

Proto-Indo-Iranians ~ 2000BC; near the Caspian Sea

[WotWotius]

Livy refers to the use of chariots when he describes the execution of the Alban king, Mettius:

'Thereupon two four-horse chariots were brought up, and Mettius was bound at full length to each, the horses were driven in opposite directions, carrying off parts of the body in each chariot, where the limbs had been secured by the cords. All present averted their eyes from the horrible spectacle. This is the first and last instance amongst the Romans of a punishment so regardless of humanity. Amongst other things which are the glory of Rome is this, that no nation has ever been contented with milder punishments.' -Livy 1.27

[caldrail]

To my mind a scythed chariot has only one effective application - to travel along the side of an enemy formation and take out the nearest rank(s). This requires that momentum is maintained - not entirely unfeasible with at least two horses galloping, but what strikes me is vulnerability of this technique. Is that why these vehicles never achieved widespread use?

[Skarr]

DecimusCaesar, on Nov 13 2006, 05:08 AM, said:

Didn't Darius used scythed chariots against Alexander's army at Gaugamela? According to John Warry's book, Alexander's Campaigns: 334-323 BC, he did. He says:

"Darius threw in his scythe-wheeled chariots. They proved a fiasco, much in the manner of those other scythe-wheeled chariots which had fought three quarters of a century earlier for another Persian King at the Battle of Cunaxa."

He was reffering to the battle fought between the Persians and Xenophon's army of the Ten thousand. This goes to show that they were used in combat, but that they proved rather useless most of the time.

The foolishness of the technique of using chariots was demonstrated ably by Alexander's armies as the men waited for the chariots to approach and then, instead of meeting them head on, which is what Darius expected, which would have been to his advantage, the ranks simply opened, allowing them to pass through.

Once they passed through the lines which parted, they closed up again and this time, the chariots were easy fodder for the men, as their backs were exposed and once the horses were killed, there was nothing to prevent their slaughter, without the loss of a single Greek or Macedonian soldier.

[Antiochus of Seleucia]

caldrail, on Nov 16 2006, 10:40 AM, said:

To my mind a scythed chariot has only one effective application - to travel along the side of an enemy formation and take out the nearest rank(s). This requires that momentum is maintained - not entirely unfeasible with at least two horses galloping, but what strikes me is vulnerability of this technique. Is that why these vehicles never achieved widespread use?

I think that's what the problem would be with scythed chariots- once you hit the mass of men, you are litterally stopped. It would be like biking head-on into corn stalks. (Don't do that btw, it hurts.) The Brits moreover used chariots as mobile archers, and carried the important leaders.

Quick question: what constitutes a 'chariot'? The Romans used 'ox-led chariots' against Pyrrhus' elephants. I could only imagine them being little more than carts carrying velites and spike collars on the oxen.

[WotWotius]

Quote

The Brits moreover used chariots as mobile archers, and carried the important leaders.

True, Caesar commented on the Britons not actually using chariots for combat, but more for transport into battle.