 Caesar "illegal" march - T.D. Barnes view, Based on D.R. Shackleton Bailey |
 Dec 19 2006, 10:46 AM
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Tribunus Laticlavius  Group: Equites Posts: 462 Joined: 24-October 06 From: "holy land" Member No.: 2368  |
Cicero was the first (or one of the firsts) to claim Caesar's March on Rome as "Illegal" . Since , it became the prime accusation against Caesar .
I say , it is all in our point of view . This is , in short T.D. Barnes and D.R. Shackleton Bailey (two Giants) view - "Shackleton-Bailey showed in 1960 that the great mass of the nobility did not stand with Pompey against Caesar – even though Münzer had asserted that they did (see note) . This is an important corrective to the perspective on the outbreak of a conflict which Cicero depicts as the illegal rebellion of a recalcitrant proconsul against the legitimate authority of the state ." "note - D. R. Shackleton Bailey, ‘The Roman Nobility in the Second Civil War’, Classical Quarterly, N. S. 10 (1960), 253-267. Brunt, Fall of the Roman Republic (1988), 494, argues that stricter attention to chronology indicates that the greatest families may have been on the whole opposed to Caesar before the civil war began." "Prosopography and Roman History by T. D. BARNES , 2005 |
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Dec 23 2006, 05:58 AM
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#31
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Eidibus Martiis Group: Patricii Posts: 3375 Joined: 22-November 05 From: Columbensis Ohii Member No.: 998 |
QUOTE(Mosquito @ Dec 22 2006, 05:35 PM) [snapback]51802[/snapback] By the way i belive that the institution of SCU was illegal So what law did it contravene? |
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Dec 26 2006, 12:33 PM
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#32
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Signifer Group: Damnatio Posts: 134 Joined: 21-December 06 From: Posnania, Res Publica Polonia Member No.: 2849 |
QUOTE(M. Porcius Cato @ Dec 23 2006, 06:58 AM) [snapback]51825[/snapback] So what law did it contravene? The law which was allowing every Roman citisen to appeal for mercy to the People's assembly. |
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Dec 26 2006, 07:35 PM
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#33
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Eidibus Martiis Group: Patricii Posts: 3375 Joined: 22-November 05 From: Columbensis Ohii Member No.: 998 |
QUOTE(Mosquito @ Dec 26 2006, 07:33 AM) [snapback]52035[/snapback] The law which was allowing every Roman citisen to appeal for mercy to the People's assembly. Had Caesar laid down his arms, he would have had that right, but no civilian law applied to men under arms. This principle extends even to this day. |
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Dec 28 2006, 10:20 AM
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#34
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Signifer Group: Damnatio Posts: 134 Joined: 21-December 06 From: Posnania, Res Publica Polonia Member No.: 2849 |
QUOTE(M. Porcius Cato @ Dec 26 2006, 08:35 PM) [snapback]52043[/snapback] Had Caesar laid down his arms, he would have had that right, but no civilian law applied to men under arms. This principle extends even to this day. Caesar was in his province and didnt commit any crime when SCU was voted. His march to Rome was his reaction for SCU. Since SCU was enacted all the Roman officials and citisens had right to kill him and thats why he has crossed Rubicon river. Remember Catiline case? He and his followers were sentenced to death by senate and later it was found illegal. Cicero was exiled for it. |
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Dec 29 2006, 05:53 AM
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#35
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Optio Group: Equites Posts: 58 Joined: 3-August 06 From: Bossier City, Louisiana Member No.: 1783 |
Caesar's blatant refusal to disband his army upon the command of the Senate was all the justification needed to employ the Senatus Consultum Ultimum - it was, for all intents and purposes, an act of treason.
Claiming that the Senatus Consultum Ultimum was illegal simply overlooks the fact that, once he disobeyed the Senate's commands, Caesar was an outlaw and no longer entitled to the protection of Roman law. Catiline was sentenced to death by the order of the Senate with the approval of the People's Tribunes. I do not recall a tribunician veto prohibiting the execution of either him, or those of his followers captured within the city proper. No, Clodius instigated the prosecution of Cicero for the executions more for political gain than a sense of legal right - in fact, it was Clodius that instituted the law in the first place. Had the People truly been incensed by the execution of the Catilinarian executions, wouldn't Cicero have been prosecuted in 62 rather than 58 B.C.E.? |
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Dec 30 2006, 04:32 PM
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#36
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Eidibus Martiis Group: Patricii Posts: 3375 Joined: 22-November 05 From: Columbensis Ohii Member No.: 998 |
QUOTE(Mosquito @ Dec 28 2006, 05:20 AM) [snapback]52149[/snapback] Caesar was in his province and didnt commit any crime when SCU was voted. Caesar was already facing prosecution for several crimes, including his violation of the leges Fufia et Aeilia as consul and his illegal crossing into Germania and Britain as proconsul. |
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Jan 27 2007, 05:06 AM
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#37
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Signifer Group: Damnatio Posts: 134 Joined: 21-December 06 From: Posnania, Res Publica Polonia Member No.: 2849 |
QUOTE(M. Porcius Cato @ Dec 30 2006, 05:32 PM) [snapback]52296[/snapback] QUOTE(Mosquito @ Dec 28 2006, 05:20 AM) [snapback]52149[/snapback] Caesar was in his province and didnt commit any crime when SCU was voted. Caesar was already facing prosecution for several crimes, including his violation of the leges Fufia et Aeilia as consul and his illegal crossing into Germania and Britain as proconsul. Well, as long as he had imperium he couldnt have been prosecuted for any real or imaginative crimes. QUOTE(L. Quintus Sertorius @ Dec 29 2006, 06:53 AM) [snapback]52221[/snapback] Caesar's blatant refusal to disband his army upon the command of the Senate was all the justification needed to employ the Senatus Consultum Ultimum - it was, for all intents and purposes, an act of treason. Claiming that the Senatus Consultum Ultimum was illegal simply overlooks the fact that, once he disobeyed the Senate's commands, Caesar was an outlaw and no longer entitled to the protection of Roman law. Catiline was sentenced to death by the order of the Senate with the approval of the People's Tribunes. I do not recall a tribunician veto prohibiting the execution of either him, or those of his followers captured within the city proper. No, Clodius instigated the prosecution of Cicero for the executions more for political gain than a sense of legal right - in fact, it was Clodius that instituted the law in the first place. Had the People truly been incensed by the execution of the Catilinarian executions, wouldn't Cicero have been prosecuted in 62 rather than 58 B.C.E.? I think you hit the point here. But what about tribunes of plebs who tried to veto it and were attacked in the senate? |
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Jan 27 2007, 05:44 AM
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#38
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Signifer Group: Damnatio Posts: 134 Joined: 21-December 06 From: Posnania, Res Publica Polonia Member No.: 2849 |
QUOTE(M. Porcius Cato @ Dec 20 2006, 04:23 PM) [snapback]51619[/snapback] QUOTE(Caesar CXXXVII @ Dec 20 2006, 04:18 AM) [snapback]51593[/snapback] 99 % of the Fasti were composed from less than c. 30 families I'm pretty sure this statistic is incomplete or a complete fabrication. Source? BTW, even if it were true that 30 families were contributing the majority of magistracies, it doesn't hold that this inequality is symptomatic of a lack of liberty. Consider a paragon of free speech like UNRV, where the top 30 posters (of around 2000 registered users) have contributed almost 2/3 of the posts to the forum. Obviously, there is nothing about equal rights that ensures equal contributions: some families cultivated politicians, whereas the vast majority did not. Between consulship of Manius Acylius Glabrio in 191 BCE and first consulship of Gaius Marius only 2 homines novi were elected for consuls. For 222 consuls elected between 218 BCE and 108 BCE: 24 were Cornelii 15 were Claudii 10 were Fulvii 9 were Aemilii 9 were Postumii 8 were Fabii 8 were Sempronii I would say that it wasnt 30 famillies that were contributing majority of magistrates but even less. In fact the rank of consul was reserved for only about 20 famillies. |
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Jan 27 2007, 06:24 AM
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#39
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Eidibus Martiis Group: Patricii Posts: 3375 Joined: 22-November 05 From: Columbensis Ohii Member No.: 998 |
QUOTE(Mosquito @ Jan 27 2007, 12:44 AM) [snapback]54153[/snapback] QUOTE(M. Porcius Cato @ Dec 20 2006, 04:23 PM) [snapback]51619[/snapback] QUOTE(Caesar CXXXVII @ Dec 20 2006, 04:18 AM) [snapback]51593[/snapback] 99 % of the Fasti were composed from less than c. 30 families I'm pretty sure this statistic is incomplete or a complete fabrication. Source? Between consulship of Manius Acylius Glabrio in 191 BCE and first consulship of Gaius Marius only 2 homines novi were elected for consuls. For 222 consuls elected between 218 BCE and 108 BCE: 24 were Cornelii 15 were Claudii 10 were Fulvii 9 were Aemilii 9 were Postumii 8 were Fabii 8 were Sempronii I would say that it wasnt 30 famillies that were contributing majority of magistrates but even less. In fact the rank of consul was reserved for only about 20 famillies. Come on, finish the math. You've listed 83 consuls from 7 families. You've still got 139 to go and only 13 families to do it in--you're not even going to come close, even for the restricted time frame you've listed. Plus, you've only listed consuls, not the 10 praetors of each year, let alone the aediles, quaestors and tribunes. Let's face it: the notion that less than 30 families made up 99% of consuls (let alone all the magistracies) is a fantastic exaggeration. This post has been edited by M. Porcius Cato: Jan 27 2007, 06:28 AM |
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Jan 27 2007, 06:52 AM
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#40
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Signifer Group: Damnatio Posts: 134 Joined: 21-December 06 From: Posnania, Res Publica Polonia Member No.: 2849 |
QUOTE(M. Porcius Cato @ Jan 27 2007, 07:24 AM) [snapback]54155[/snapback] Come on, finish the math. You've listed 83 consuls from 7 families. You've still got 139 to go and only 13 families to do it in--you're not even going to come close, even for the restricted time frame you've listed. Plus, you've only listed consuls, not the 10 praetors of each year, let alone the aediles, quaestors and tribunes. Let's face it: the notion that less than 30 families made up 99% of consuls (let alone all the magistracies) is a fantastic exaggeration. As we were talking about fasti i listed only consuls. But well, praetors also had fasti. And tribunes of plebs were not magistrates. They were representants of plebs but not magistrates so you cant count them. 10 praetors? First was only one praetor and noone knows what he was really doing in the begining of republic. It was praetor maximus. After judical power was separated from consulship there was 1 praetor. In the 4th century BC additional praetor for foreigners was added. After Sicilly and Sardinia became provinces 2 more praetors were elected. Sulla raised number of praetors to 8. Caesar raised number of praetors to 16. Aediles were only 4. And questor was really a minor office which untill Sulla didnt even give the right to sit in the senate after term was over This post has been edited by Mosquito: Jan 27 2007, 04:50 PM |
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Jan 27 2007, 01:53 PM
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#41
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Eidibus Martiis Group: Patricii Posts: 3375 Joined: 22-November 05 From: Columbensis Ohii Member No.: 998 |
QUOTE(Mosquito @ Jan 27 2007, 01:52 AM) [snapback]54158[/snapback] QUOTE(M. Porcius Cato @ Jan 27 2007, 07:24 AM) [snapback]54155[/snapback] Come on, finish the math. You've listed 83 consuls from 7 families. You've still got 139 to go and only 13 families to do it in--you're not even going to come close, even for the restricted time frame you've listed. Plus, you've only listed consuls, not the 10 praetors of each year, let alone the aediles, quaestors and tribunes. Let's face it: the notion that less than 30 families made up 99% of consuls (let alone all the magistracies) is a fantastic exaggeration. 10 praetors? First was only one praetor and noone knows what he was really doing in the begining of republic. It was praetor maximus.After judical power was separated from consulship there was 1 praetor. In the 4th century BC additional praetor for foreigners was added. After Sicilly and Sardinia became provinces 2 more praetors were elected. Sulla raised number of praetors to 8. Caesar raised number of praetors to 16. And in Cicero's day, there were 10. But none of this helps your case in the slightest: there's still no way that 99% of consulships or magistracies (no matter what offices are meant by the term) were dominated by 30 or 20 families. I wonder, do you really want to persist in this thesis? |
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Jan 27 2007, 03:31 PM
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#42
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Scriptor Group: Triumviri Posts: 6124 Joined: 21-June 03 From: Suburbia, MI USA Member No.: 3 |
It may be important for "family" to be defined within the context of this discussion, simply for clarity. Does a single family include the entire clan gens, or is it limited to each branch as defined by agnomen.
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Jan 27 2007, 04:52 PM
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#43
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Tribunus Laticlavius Group: Equites Posts: 462 Joined: 24-October 06 From: "holy land" Member No.: 2368 |
When I said 99 etc' I wanted to show the un-democratic nature of the Roman republic just before Caesar's day , that is the point .
Now numbers - since 200 BCE (not 59 or 91 or 133 or 167) there were 313 consulships (including Sufecti) . Fasti is for Consuls , not Quastors and surly not T.P. 253 of these Consulships were held by 30 families (Gens) that is 81 % . More important is that 287 of the 313 were held by 44 families , that is 91.7 % So , those numbers have any influence on my (and many) argument ? It was a pure oligarchy , the poeple had no shrare in the government . |
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Jan 27 2007, 05:07 PM
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#44
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Signifer Group: Damnatio Posts: 134 Joined: 21-December 06 From: Posnania, Res Publica Polonia Member No.: 2849 |
Ok, here you got it, the list for 200 years:
300 Marcus Valerius M.f. Corvus V, Quintus Appuleius Pansa 299 Marcus Fulvius Cn.f. Paetinus, Titus Manlius T.f. Torquatus, Suffect: Marcus Valerius M.f. Corvus VI 298 Lucius Cornelius Cn.f. Scipio Barbatus, Gnaeus Fulvius Cn.f. Maximus Centumalus 297 Quintus Fabius Maximus Rullianus IV, Publius Decius P.f. Mus III 296 Appius Claudius C.f. Caecus II, Lucius Volumnius C.f. Flamma Violens II. 295 Quintus Fabius Maximus Rullianus V, Publius Decius P.f. Mus IV 294 Lucius Postumius L.f. Megellus II, who was recalled. Marcus Atilius M.f. Regulus 293 Lucius Papirius L.f. Cursor, Spurius Carvilius C.f. Maximus 292 Quintus Fabius Q.f. Maximus Gurges, Decimus Iunius D.f. Brutus Scaeva 291 Lucius Postumius L.f. Megellus III, Gaius Iunius C.f. Bubulcus Brutus 290 Manius Curius Dentatus I, Publius Cornelius Cn.f. Rufinus 289 Marcus Valerius M.f. Maximus Corvinus II, Quintus Caedicius Q.f. Noctua 288 Quintus Marcius Q.f. Tremulus II, Publius Cornelius A.f. Arvina II 287 Marcus Claudius M.f. Marcellus, Gaius Nautius Rutilus 286 Marcus Valerius Maximus (Potitus?), Gaius Aelius Paetus 285 Gaius Claudius M.f. Canina, Marcus Aemilius Lepidus 284 Gaius Servilius Tucca, Lucius Caecilius (Caelius) Metellus Denter, Suffect: Manius Curius Dentatus 283 Publius Cornelius Dolabella, Gnaeus Domitius Cn.f. Calvinus Maximus 282 Gaius Fabricius Luscinus, Quintus Aemilius Cn.f. Papus 281 Lucius Aemilius Q.f. Barbula, Quintus Marcius Q.f. Philippus 280 Publius Valerius Laevinus, Tiberius Coruncanius 279 Publius Sulpicius P.f. Saverrio, Publius Decius P.f. Mus 278 Gaius Fabricius Luscinus II, Quintus Aemilius Cn.f. Papus II 277 Publius Cornelius Cn.f. Rufinus II, Gaius Iunius C.f. Bubulcus Brutus I 276 Quintus Fabius Q.f. Maximus Gurges II, Gaius Genucius L.f. Clepsina 275 Manius Curius Dentatus II, Lucius Cornelius Ti.f Lentulus 274 Manius Curius Dentatus III, Servius Cornelius P.f. Merenda 273 Gaius Fabius M.f. Dorso Licinus, Gaius Claudius M.f. Canina II 272 Lucius Papirius L.f. Cursor II, Spurius Carvilius C.f. Maximus II 271 Gaius (or Kaeso) Quinctius L.f. Claudus, Lucius Genucius L.f. Clepsina 270 Gaius Genucius L.f. Clepsina II, Gnaeus Cornelius P.f. Blasio 269 Quintus Ogulnius L.f. Gallus, Gaius Fabius C.f. Pictor 268 Publius Sempronius P.f. Sophus, Appius Claudius Ap.f. Russus 267 Marcus Atilius Regulus, Lucius Iulius L.f. Libo 266 Decimus Iunius D.f. Pera, Numerius Fabius C.f. Pictor 265 Quintus Fabius Q.f. Maximus Gurges III, Lucius Mamilius Q.f. Vitulus 264 Appius Claudius C.f. Caudex, Marcus Fulvius Q.f. Flaccus 263 M' Otacilius C.f. Crassus, M' Valerius M.f. Maximus (Messalla) 262 Lucius Postumius (Albinus) L.f. Megellus, Quintus Mamilius Q.f. Vitulus 261 Lucius Valerius M.f. Flaccus, Tiberius Otacilius C.f. Crassus 260 Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio Asina, Gaius Duilius 259 Lucius Cornelius Scipio, Caius Aquillius M.f. Florus 258 Aulus Atilius A.f. Calatinus, Gaius Sulpicius Q.f. Paterculus 257 Gaius Atilius M.f. Regulus, Gnaeus Cornelius P.f. Blasio II 256 Lucius Manlius A.f. Vulso Longus I, Quintus Caedicius Q.f. Suffect: Marcus Atilius Regulus II 255 Marcus Aemilius M.f. Paullus, Servius Fulvius M.f. Paetinus Nobilior 254 Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio Asina II, Aulus Atilius A.f. Calatinus II 253 Gnaeus Servilius Cn.f. Caepio, Gaius Sempronius Ti.f. Blaesus 252 Gaius Aurelius L.f. Cotta, Publius Servilius Q.f. Geminus 251 Lucius Caecilius L.f. Metellus I, Gaius Furius Pacilus 250 Gaius Atilius M.f. Regulus II, Lucius Manlius A.f. Vulso Longus II 249 Publius Claudius Pulcher, Lucius Iunius C.f. Pullus 248 Gaius Aurelius L.f. Cotta II, Publius Servilius Q.f. Geminus II 247 Lucius Caecilius L.f. Metellus II, Numerius (Marcus) Fabius M.f. Buteo 246 Manius Otacilius C.f. Crassus II, Marcus Fabius C.f. Licinus 245 Marcus Fabius M.f. Buteo, Gaius Atilius A.f. Bulbus 244 Aulus Manlius T.f. Torquatus Atticus I, Gaius Sempronius Ti.f. Blaesus II 243 Gaius Fundanius C.f. Fundulus, Gaius Sulpicius C.f. Galus 242 Gaius Lutatius C.f. Catulus, Aulus Postumius A.f. Albinus 241 Aulus Manlius Titus f. Torquatus Atticus II, Quintus Lutatius Catulus f. Cerco 240 Gaius Claudius Ap.f. C.n. Centho, Marcus Sempronius C.f. Tuditanus 239 Gaius Mamilius Q.f. Turrinus, Quintus Valerius Q.f. Falto 238 Tiberius Sempronius Ti.f. Gracchus, Pub. Valerius Q.f. Falto 237 Lucius Cornelius L.f. Lentulus Caudinus, Quintus Fulvius M.f. Flaccus 236 Publius Cornelius L.f. Lentulus Caudinus, Gaius Licinius P.f. Varus 235 Titus Manlius T.f. Torquatus I, Gaius Atilius A.f. Bulbus II 234 Lucius Postumius A.f. Albinus, Spurius Carvilius Sp.f. Maximus Ruga 233 Quintus Fabius Q.f. Maximus Verrucosus I, M' Pomponius M.f. Matho 232 Marcus Aemilius M.f. Lepidus, Marcus Publicius L.f. Malleolus 231 Marcus Pomponius M'.f. Matho, Gaius Papirius C.f. Maso 230 Marcus Aemilius L.f. Barbula, Marcus Iunius D.f. Pera 229 Lucius Postumius A.f. Albinus II, Gnaeus Fulvius Cn.f. Centumalus, 228 Spurius Carvilius Sp.f. Maximus Ruga II, Quintus Fabius Q.f. Maximus Verrucosus II 227 Publius Valerius L.f. Flaccus, Marcus Atilius M.f. Regulus 226 Marcus Valerius M'.f. Maximus Messala, Lucius Apustius L.f. Fullo 225 Lucius Aemilius Q.f. Papus, Gaius Atilius M.f. Regulus 224 Titus Manlius T.f. Torquatus II, Quintus Fulvius M.f. Flaccus II 223 Gaius Flaminius C.f., Publius Furius Sp.f. Philus 222 Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio Calvus, Marcus Claudius M.f. Marcellus I 221 Publius Cornelius Cn.f. Scipio Asina, Marcus Minucius C.f. Rufus, Suffect: Marcus Aemilius M.f. Lepidus II 220 Lucius Veturius L.f. Philo, Gaius Lutatius Catulus 219 Lucius Aemilius M.f. Paulus, Marcus Livius M.f. Salinator 218 Publius Cornelius L.f. Scipio, Tiberius Sempronius C.f. Longus 217 Gaius Servilius P.f. Geminus, Gaius Flaminius C.f. II. Suffect: Marcus Atilius M.f. Regulus II 216 Lucius Aemilius Paullus II, Gaius Terentius C.f. Varro 215 Tiberius Sempronius Ti.f. Gracchus, Lucius Postumius A.f. Albinus III. Suffect: Marcus Claudius M.f. Marcellus II abd., Quintus Fabius Q.f. Maximus Verrucosus III 214 Quintus Fabius Q.f. Maximus Verrucosus IV, Marcus Claudius M.f. Marcellus III 213 Quintus Fabius Q.f. Maximus, Tiberius Sempronius Ti.f. Gracchus II 212 Appius Claudius P.f. Pulcher, Quintus Fulvius M.f. Flaccus III 211 Publius Sulpicius Ser.f. Galba Maximus I, Gnaeus Fulvius Cn.f. Centumalus Maximus 210 Marcus Valerius P.f. Laevinus II, Marcus Claudius M.f. Marcellus IV 209 Quintus Fabius Q.f. Maximus Verrucosus V, Quintus Fulvius M.f. Flaccus IV 208 Marcus Claudius M.f. Marcellus V, Titus Quinctius L.f. Crispinus 207 Gaius Claudius Ti.f. Nero, Marcus Livius M.f. Salinator II 206 Quintus Caecilius L.f. Metellus, Lucius Veturius L.f. Philo 205 Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus, Publius Licinius P.f. Crassus Dives 204 Marcus Cornelius M.f. Cethegus, Publius Sempronius C.f. Tuditanus 203 Gnaeus Servilius Cn.f. Caepio, Gaius Servilius C.f. Geminus 202 Tiberius Claudius P.f. Nero, Marcus Servilius C.f. Pulex Geminus 201 Gnaeus Cornelius L.f. Lentulus, Publius Aelius Q.f. Paetus 200 Publius Sulpicius Ser.f. Galba Maximus II, Gaius Aurelius C.f. Cotta 199 Lucius Cornelius L.f. Lentulus, Publius Villius Ti.f. Tappulus 198 Titus Quinctius T.f. Flamininus, Sextus Aelius Q.f. Paetus Catus 197 Gaius Cornelius L.f. Cethegus, Quintus Minucius C.f. Rufus 196 Lucius Furius Sp.f. Purpureo, Marcus Claudius M.f. Marcellus 195 Marcus Porcius M.f. Cato, Lucius Valerius P.f. Flaccus 194 Publius Cornelius P.f. Scipio Africanus II, |Tiberius Sempronius Ti.f. Longus 193 Lucius Cornelius L.f. Merula, Aulus Minucius Q.f. Thermus 192 Lucius Quinctius T.f. Flamininus, Gnaeus Domitius L.f. Ahenobarbus 191 Manius Acilius C.f. Glabrio, Publius Cornelius Cn.f. Scipio Nasica 190 Lucius Cornelius P.f. Scipio Asiaticus, Gaius Laelius C.f 189 Gnaeus Manlius Cn.f. Vulso, Marcus Fulvius M.f. Nobilior 188 Gaius Livius M.f. Salinator, Marcus Valerius M.f. Messalla 187 Marcus Aemilius M.f. Lepidus I, Gaius Flaminius C.f. 186 Spurius Postumius L.f. Albinus, Quintus Marcius L.f. Philippus I 185 Appius Claudius Ap.f. Pulcher, Marcus Sempronius M.f. Tuditanus 184 Publius Claudius Ap.f. Pulcher, Lucius Porcius L.f. Licinus 183 Quintus Fabius Q.f. Labeo, Marcus Claudius M.f. Marcellus 182 Lucius Aemilius L.f. Paullus, Gnaeus Baebius Q.f. Tamphilus 181 Publius Cornelius Cethegus, Marcus Baebius Q.f. Tamphilus 180 Aulus Postumius A.f. Albinus (Luscus), Gaius Calpurnius C.f. Piso. Suffect: Quintus Fulvius Cn.f. Flaccus 179 Lucius Manlius L.f. Acidinus Fulvianus, Quintus Fulvius Q.f. Flaccus 178 Marcus Iunius M.f. Brutus, Aulus Manlius Cn.f. Vulso 177 Gaius Claudius Ap.f. Pulcher, Tiberius Sempronius P.f. Gracchus 176 Gnaeus Cornelius Cn.f. Scipio Hispallus, Quintus Petillius. Suffect: Gaius Valerius M.f. Laevinus 175 Publius Mucius Q.f. Scaevola, Marcus Aemilius M.f. Lepidus II 174 Spurius Postumius A.f. Albinus Paullulus, Quintus Mucius Q.f. Scaevola 173 Lucius Postumius A.f. Albinus, Marcus Popillius P.f. Laenas 172 Gaius Popillius P.f. Laenas I, Publius Aelius P.f. Ligus 171 Publius Licinius C.f. Crassus, Gaius Cassius C.f. Longinus. 170 Aulus Hostilius L.f. Mancinus, Aulus Atilius C.f. Serranus 169 Quintus Marcius L.f. Philippus II, Gnaeus Servilius Cn.f. Caepio 168 Lucius Aemilius L.f. Paullus II, Gaius Licinius C.f. Crassus 167 Quintus Aelius Paetus, Marcus Junius Pennus 166 Gaius Sulpicius Galba, Marcus Claudius Marcellus I 165 Tiberius Manlius Torquatus, Gnaeus Octavius 164 Aulus Manlius Torquatus, Quintus Cassius Longinus 163 Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus II, Marcus Juventius Thalna 162 Publius Cornelius Scipio Nasica Corculum I, Gaius Marcius Figulus I, Suffect: Publius Cornelius Lentulus, Gnaeus Domitius Ahenobarbus 161 Marcus Valerius Messalla, Gaius Fannius Strabo 160 Marcus Cornelius Cethegus, Lucius Anicius Gallus 159 Gnaeus Cornelius Dolabella, Marcus Fulvius Nobilior 158 Marcus Aemilius Lepidus, Gaius Popillius P.f. Laenas II 157 Servius Julius Caesar, Lucius Aurelius Orestes 156 Lucius Cornelius Lentulus Lupus, Gaius Marcius Figulus II 155 Publius Cornelius Scipio Nasica Corculum II, Marcus Claudius Marcellus II 154 Lucius Postumius Albinus, Quintus Opimius 153 Tiberius Annius Luscus, Quintus Fulvius Nobilior 152 Lucius Valerius Flaccus, Marcus Claudius Marcellus III 151 Aulus Postumius Albinus, Lucius Licinius Lucullus 150 Tiberius Quinctius Flaminius, M' Acilius Balbus 149 Manius Manilius, Marcius Censorinus 148 Spurius Postumius Albinus Magnus, Lucius Calpurnius Piso Caesoninus 147 Publius Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus Africanus I, Gaius Livius Drusus 146 Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus, Lucius Mummius Achaicus 145 Quintus Fabius Maximus Aemilianus, Lucius Hostilius Mancinus 144 Servius Sulpicius Ser.f. Galba, Lucius Aurelius Cotta 143 Appius Claudius Pulcher, Quintus Caecilius Metellus Macedonicus 142 Quintus Fabius Maximus Servilianus, Lucius Caecilius Metellus Calvus 141 Gnaeus Servilius Caepio, Quintus Pompeius 140 Quintus Servilius Caepio, Gaius Laelius Sapiens 139 Gnaeus Calpurnius Piso, Marcus Popillius Laenas 138 Publius Cornelius Scipio Nasica Serapio, Decimus Junius Brutus Callaicus 137 Marcus Aemilius Lepidus Porcina, Gaius Hostilius Mancinus 136 Lucius Furius Philus, Sextus Atilius Serranus 135 Quintus Calpurnius Piso, Servius Fulvius Flaccus 134 Gaius Fulvius Flaccus, Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus Aemilianus II 133 Lucius Calpurnius Piso Frugi, Publius Mucius Scaevola 132 Publius Popillius Laenas, Publius Rupilius 131 Lucius Valerius Flaccus, Publius Licinius Crassus Dives Mucianus 130 Lucius Cornelius Lentulus, Marcus Perperna Suffect: Appius Claudius Nero 129 Gaius Sempronius Tuditanus, Manius Aquillius 128 Titus Annius Rufus, Gnaeus Octavius 127 Lucius Cornelius Cinna, Lucius Cassius Longinus Ravilla 126 Marcus Aemilius Lepidus, Lucius Aurelius Orestes 125 Marcus Fulvius M.f. Flaccus, Marcus Plautius Hypsaeus 124 Gaius Cassius Longinus, Gaius Sextius Calvinus 123 Titus Quinctius Flaminius, Quintus Caecilius Metellus Balearicus 122 Gnaeus Domitius Ahenobarbus, Gaius Fannius 121 Quintus Fabius Maximus Allobrogicus, Lucius Opimius 120 Gaius Papirius Carbo, Publius Manilius 119 Lucius Aurelius Cotta, Lucius Caecilius Metellus Delmaticus 118 Quintus Marcius Rex, Marcus Porcius Cato 117 Lucius Caecilius Metellus Diadematus, Quintus Mucius Scaevola 116 Quintus Fabius Maximus Eburnus, Gaius Licinius Geta 115 Marcus Aemilius Scaurus, Marcus Caecilius Metellus 114 Manius Acilius Balbus, Gaius Porcius Cato 113 Gnaeus Papirius Carbo, Gaius Caecilius Metellus Caprarius 112 Lucius Calpurnius Piso Caesoninus, Marcus Livius Drusus 111 Publius Cornelius Scipio Nasica Serapio, Lucius Calpurnius Bestia 110 Spurius Postumius Albinus, Marcus Minucius Rufus 109 Quintus Caecilius Metellus Numidicus, Marcus Junius Silanus 108 Servius Sulpicius Galba, Lucius Hortensius Suffect: Marcus Aurelius Scaurus 107 Lucius Cassius Longinus, Gaius Marius I 106 Quintus Servilius Caepio, Gaius Atilius Serranus 105 Gnaeus Mallius Maximus, Publius Rutilius Rufus 104 Gaius Flavius Fimbria, Gaius Marius II 103 Lucius Aurelius Orestes, Gaius Marius III 102 Quintus Lutatius Catulus, Gaius Marius IIII 101 Manius Aquillius, Gaius Marius V It is enough to add some other nobile patrician and plebian famillies to those i posted earlier, such like: Valerii, Caecillii, Calpurnii, Livii, Mucii, Marcii, Licinii, Aurelii, Domitii etc and few homines novi who were joining nobilitas like Pompeii or Porcii, QUOTE(Caesar CXXXVII @ Jan 27 2007, 05:52 PM) [snapback]54201[/snapback] When I said 99 etc' I wanted to show the un-democratic nature of the Roman republic just before Caesar's day , that is the point . Now numbers - since 200 BCE (not 59 or 91 or 133 or 167) there were 313 consulships (including Sufecti) . Fasti is for Consuls , not Quastors and surly not T.P. 253 of these Consulships were held by 30 families (Gens) that is 81 % . More important is that 287 of the 313 were held by 44 families , that is 91.7 % So , those numbers have any influence on my (and many) argument ? It was a pure oligarchy , the poeple had no shrare in the government . Aye, magistrates were elected by centurial assembly where in fact 2 first richest classes had decisive votes. |
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Jan 27 2007, 05:29 PM
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Eidibus Martiis Group: Patricii Posts: 3375 Joined: 22-November 05 From: Columbensis Ohii Member No.: 998 |
QUOTE(Caesar CXXXVII @ Jan 27 2007, 11:52 AM) [snapback]54201[/snapback] Now numbers - since 200 BCE (not 59 or 91 or 133 or 167) there were 313 consulships (including Sufecti) . Fasti is for Consuls , not Quastors and surly not T.P. 253 of these Consulships were held by 30 families (Gens) that is 81 % . More important is that 287 of the 313 were held by 44 families , that is 91.7 % I'm going to open a new thread on this. |
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