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theilian

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Everything posted by theilian

  1. theilian

    Cicero's letters

    Please don't hesitate to post on account of the flow of the post. I update the first post with master list each time I add something new. To be perfectly frank, I did not begin this thread with purely altruistic reason. I was hoping to talk with others about what I was reading and at first mentioned some of things that one could discuss, but I guess there's not much to talk about.
  2. theilian

    Cicero's letters

    Cicero vs. Antony <1> (2 September 44 BC) - Excerpts from 1st Philippic: "If I say insulting remark against his private life, I shall not object to him treating me as a bitterest enemy" Due to lack of interest, I think I'll make just a few more batches of Cicero letters. I am wondering if I should finish off with the last period or earlier letters that I did't cover yet. Any request or feeback?
  3. theilian

    Cicero's letters

    Ides of March <3>
  4. theilian

    Cicero's letters

    Ides of March <2> (May-June 44 BC) - "courage of men, planning of children"
  5. theilian

    Cicero's letters

    Ides of March <1> (March - April 44 BC) - "The tyranny lives on though the tyrant is dead." In these letters, we find Cicero rejoicing at Caesar's death, feeling out Caesarian's reactions, gauging people's reaction from theater, soon being disillusioned with Ides of March and fearing a civil war, meeting with Octavian, and then again uncertain on the course of his action.
  6. theilian

    Optimates VS. Populares

    It's my turn to say come now, as if Clodius was the most principled politician. Though he was populare, he was opposed to both Optimates and triumvirate and changed sides when it suited him.
  7. theilian

    Optimates VS. Populares

    I was using a pleb in a later sense referring to middle and especially lower class. But this act of 'civil disobedience' didn't work out too well, and I don't think it requires sprecial foresight to see that. But the thing is while the Optimates were critical of Sulla's method, they were largely supportive of substance of his actions. They were rather dragged by the populares into overturning Sulla's 'reform', and I think this put them in defensive and reactive long before first triumvirate. But Caesar offered to address such issues if the Senate proposed them. This may have been done purely for political show. I don't deny that though I don't think there is real evidence either way. In any case, this put the Optimates in bad position, and they just had no answer. At this point, first triumvirate was not visible (and I don't think it was at this point what it came to be), so one can't say this was some 'civil disobedience' against tyranny. It was plainly obstructionist policy, which could not possibly engender good will of populus. Now, I am not excusing Caesar here. The subsequent use of violence by Clodius escalated the situation perhaps beyond any hope. I am saying that both side contributed greatly to the final collapse. By this time I think things escalated to such such situation that Caesar could and did abuse his power and did irreparable harm to the republic. But still, I think this law was beneficial to the common people, who were after all Caesar's power base. Also it does not mean that Caesar necessarily planned all this in advance or it would have followed original law if the latter was supported by Optimates. Optimates, by opposing the first law, were open to accusation that they were being merely obstructionist and greedy of the interests of senatorial class (which in fact they were). My political inclination is with populares, but I don't think the repulblic was irredeemable. As for Caesar, I don't see him as an ogre that our dear Cato makes him out to be, and I agree with most of his social programme that he enforced once he became, let's face it, the first emperor of Rome. (Maybe his 10-year campaign in Gaul and stay with Cleopatra affected him) But for me this legacy which ended the political discourse (and populares movement as well) for over millenium in Western civilization is more significant and lasting than his populares legacy. But It would be wrong to blame all this on Caesar, I'd say Optimates as a whole were as much responsible.
  8. theilian

    Optimates VS. Populares

    First of all, I was not advocating the first triumvirate. I agree with Severus that critical first triumvirate was critical step to the demise of the republic, and I also think that the comparison of Crassus and tax-farmers with special interest is very apt. But I thought the Senate should have recognized that people should have more power and spoils and as such propose their own pro-pleb policy to counter triumvirate rather than watch for the skies. And while I can't say that Pompey had right to demand land for his veterans, it must be admited that the status quo as it were was unpopular with plebs, veterans had to be compensated, land reform would have benefited the general population as well with revenues coming from the East. Furthermore, when Caesar first proposed land law, he was apparently willing to negotiate with Senate. Campanian land was not to be touched, all the things that you mention were remvoed. When Optimates responded by sheer obstructionist tactics, it could not be anything but losing game. And the violence, for which I fully blame triumvirate and Clodius, was not meant against urban plebs who were opposed to the land law (why would they oppose?) but to intimidate Optimates and pro-Optimate tribunes.
  9. theilian

    Cicero's letters

    Life under Caeser <3> - Letters to Atticus: "But what about Brutus?"
  10. I came across this webpage for class called History of Western Civilization from Boise State: http://history.boisestate.edu/westciv/romanrev/21.shtml In another page, it claims that Caesar "did manage to further his reputation by associating himself with the prosecution of the Catilinarian Conspiracy."
  11. theilian

    Optimates VS. Populares

    But wasn't it the unwillingness of the Optimates to compromise that drove Pompey to Crassus and Caesar? And afterward, it seems that unimaginative obstructionist policy of the Optimates further escalated the situation and undermined their own position as totally ineffectual. I think naturally the struggle is fought on the Senate and between those in magistrate offices, but surely there were forces behind them. And I think Gracchi's legacy is that they unleashed the political power of people in a way that they did not realize before.
  12. theilian

    Optimates VS. Populares

    I need to study more to add anything meaningful to discussion, and I'm afraid that I'll draw ire from both sides, but here is a wild suggestion. Maybe both Optimates and populares are to blame? My basic understanding of this period is that while the Senate was not monolithic, there existed the majority party of Optimates who unfortunately did not recognize the necesity to adopt to chaning times. I believe the farmer population was being decimated by the wars while wealthy class were taking all the spoils of the conquest. While the situation may have been exaggerated,there seem to have been widespread discontent among the urban plebs toward Senate, which fed populares movement. Optimates should have seen that they could no longer hold on to status quo and should have come up with better strategy than obstructionist policy. And I fault populares for increasingly extralegal measures that justified Optimates in their view. The bottomline is that both the times of Gracchus and later period could use more moderates, and I felt that it was this failure to find compromise that allowed generals to dominate and doomed the republic. So far my impression is that Roman politics was to myopic and too dependent for personal alliances to recognize the general direction it was heading into.
  13. theilian

    Catamites.

    A late interloper here, but I too am confused as to how seriously the Romans viewed these gossips and how important they were in terms of politics. Apparently there were scandalous gossips concerning Clodia and Caelius, and apparently Cicero's public mockery of her left her marginalized afterwards. Maybe if they were believed to be true, I guess it could be very damaging. Cicero piled up on Antony's alleged sins in 2nd philippic to destroy's his reputation. But did they really believe all that? About Cicero's letter, if he heard anything about Caesar and Octavian, he'd definitely share it with Atticus, but as pointed out, we don't have all letters. Actually, Cicero liked gossips, and I found in the letters references to among others, Lucullus' brother being cuckolded by Memmius (he implies some political purpose) , notororious Vedius Pollio maybe having relationship with Brutus' sister and 4 other ladies, somone named Ocella being caught in bed twice in a week, etc.
  14. theilian

    Cicero's letters

    It's a bit awkard to be the only person posting here, but since I have them ready, I'll share them just as well if that's okay with you. Life under Caesar <2> (46 BC) - Letters to Friends: "In the Ruins of Republic" Cicero is in more somber mood here in his letters to fellow Pompeiians, and many letters follow the tradition of consolation letters as if grieving someone's death. I think it's interesting that although he mourns the current situation, he yet blames it on general condition of war and Caesar's followers rather than the man himself, which is to come later. Letters include those to Varro, Sulpicius, Titius, Cassius, etc In letter to Titius, Cicero writes: Is it just me, or does this quote give very strong vibe of Hamlet's To Be or Not to Be? I didn't know before, but now I know there was long tradition of Greco-Roman consolation literature that throws a new light on the the whole Claudius, Hamlet lines.
  15. theilian

    Virtual St Paddy's Party!

    St. Patricks' Day Parade in LA LA had a parade on Friday because otherwise no one (ie. office worker) would show up. But still we had one (and no, I didn't attend)
  16. theilian

    Virtual St Paddy's Party!

    I hope everyone had wonderful St. Patrick's Day. I guess we lovers of Rome have very special reason to be gratefull to the Irish: The Reapperance of the Texts of the Classics So thank you very much to the Irish and Happy St. Patrick's Day!!!
  17. theilian

    Cicero's letters

    Added Paetus letters. Cicero to Paetus (46 BC) - Life under Caesar: Always Look on the Bright Side of Life First letter depicts Caesar getting daily report of Cicero's witticism, 4th one shows Cicero's uneasiness at the presence of notorious courtesan Cytheris (Antony's mistress), 6th letter is light-hearted discourse on a certain obscene word, which he is careful not to utter.
  18. theilian

    Cicero's letters

    I added another set of Cicero's letters Caesar vs Pompey <3> letters from Pompey's camp and Brundisium. First two letters are from Caelius and Dolabella. It's kind of interesting that these kinds of letters could be exchanged between very high generals/officials of enemy camps. Also interesting that Caesar still sought to entice Cicero to neutrality even after he joined Pompey's camp. Still more interesting is the fourth letters in which Cicero repeats the bloody plans of the Pompeiians - proscription of large number of people, apparently including Atticus. Any discussion on this?
  19. theilian

    Democracy in the Empire

    But doors of imperial palace were also closed to people, I believe. My impression of late Roman republic so far is that it was largely oligarchic but there were enough elements of democracy that could be utilized without the high-handed manner that Julius Caesar took to push his populares agenda. Not that I am all that enamored with the Optimates. I think the reform was clearly necessary afte the time of Gracchi brothers, concessions had to be made for the people both in social programs and political power. But the bottomline is that with the death of republic, the tradition of Greco-Roman political discourse died with it.
  20. theilian

    Happy Birthday to M. Porcius Cato!

    I can't believe that Ides of March is really Cato's birthday, but still Happy Birthday! :king:
  21. theilian

    Cicero's Death

    I guess we just have to accept that. But what I find interesting about Cicero's death is that I think it shows us the process in which embellishments were added. I'm yet divided as to how applicable this would be to other historical accounts. About history being dull subject, I wouldn't think so, but apparently it was so in Seneca the Elder's time. He uses metaphor of needing to feed medicine by couching it with honey, medicine being history and honey being declamation. So declamation was possibly bigger part of history that we'd usually imagine.
  22. theilian

    Cicero's Death

    Hi, I got interested in Roman history thanks to HBO series Rome (sigh, I know), and I am still learning. I've been focusing on Cicero especially. Recently with his death on the series, I've been paying attention to the ancient accounts of his death and reception by the later Romans, and noticed a few things that might illustrate how 'fact's of history may change over time. So here is my rather inadequate thought: When Cicero's head and hand(s) were nailed on the rostra, this was witnessed by tens of thousands of people. But for some reason, there is a great deal of confusion as to how many hands were nailed. Why? There are at least 6 surviving accounts of Cicero's death. According to Livy, Cicero lost both hands, but according to Appian, Dio(see bottom of Livy page), and V. Maximus(middle of Livy page), they cut off 1 hand. Plutarch(lower part of Livy page) has it both ways, saying 2 hands in Cicero biography but 1 hand in Antony biography. In a poem (Latin) by C. Severus, it's 2 hands. What's interesting is that if you look at them chronologically, in the earliest versions(Severus and Livy), it's 2 hands. In the next earliest (Maximus), it's 1 hand. In Plutarch, it's both 1 and 2 hands, and then in later histories(Appian and Dio), they all become one right hand. What's more interesting is that in the earliest version, Severus' poem, hands may not have been even associated with oratory. I don't know Latin, but hands are described as "servants of such great deeds", that is the opposition to Antony, oration being subjugated to the 'act'. But by the time of Livy, which is 30-40 years later (I think), two hands come to mean writing against Antony. In Plutarch, both 2 hand (with oratorical connotaton) and 1 hand (literary connation) are maintained, and in later stories, they become the right hand that wrote Philippic and loses oratical connotation altogheter. My thesis is that as image of Cicero is changed from that of statesman against Antony, to performing orator, and then to literary writer, in the process of molding these images, one certain detail of historical fact is changed. (So, it seems that two hands being nailed was the historical fact) But furthermore, the account of Cicero's death seems to have been further corrupted by rhetorical exercises at Roman oratory schools. From Seneca the Elder, we learn that Cicero's death was very popular topic for oratorical declamation. And it seems that the declaimers in their enthusiasm for praising Cicero and denouncing his killers, added stories which later may have been picked up by historians. (In case of Vellieus' account, described right below Livy, the author even breaks off from his historical narrative to adopt declamatory tone condemning Antony personally.) For instance, I read that Seneca the Elder criticized declaimers for assuming that Popilius was the assassin, having previously defended by Cicero on a charge of parricide. By the time of Plutarch, it's an established fact that Popillius is one of the assassins along with Herennius, who is the actual killer. By the time of Appian, Popilius is the sole assassin who saws off Cicero's head. And maybe such declaiming is the source of other dubious details such as betrayal of ex-slave of Cicero's brother, which is rejected even by Plutarch. This reappears in another form in Appian, where Cicero is betrayed by Clodius' client. And I think that the popular story that Fulvia stabbed Cicero's tongue with hairpin is same type of fiction because Cassius Dio (chronologically the last) is the only writer who mentions this. Surely, if it really happend, considering the prominence of Fulvia and symbolism of tongue, earlier authors would have mentoned the story. Also seeing Antony's reaction in these accounts is interesting. In Livy, his reaction is not described at all. In Plutarch, Antony is shown to be much pleased saying: "Now let our proscriptions have an end." Then in Appian, "It is said that even at his meals Antony placed the head of Cicero before his table, until he became satiated with the horrid sight." By the time of Dio, Antony is not enough, so Fulvia appears with her hairpin. So Livy's account is probably the least corrupted. Livy even mentions that Cicero had it coming to him because he would have destroyed Antony if he could. In all later accounts, Cicero's death is divorced from political situation and he is basically depicted as an innocent victim, which he became as Cicero the politician was forgotten and Cicero the writer is remembered. Dio, even though hostile to Cicero, seems to reflect this by adopting 1 hand theory. Sorry for long post, I hope I didn't waste your time, but I think it raises question about how much we can trust our ancient sources. So learned friends, what's your opinion on this? If anyone knows some other account of Cicero's death that I am not aware of, please let me know. For the reference, timeline of the authors Cicero's death - Dec. 7, 43BC Cornelius Severus fl. 38BC Livy 59BC - 17AD Seneca Elder 54BC - 39AD Valerius Maximus c. 20BC - c. 50AD Velleius Paterculus c. 19BC - c. AD31 Plutarch 46AD - 127 AD Appian 95AD - 165AD Cassius Dio 155AD - 229AD
  23. theilian

    Spring

    Come on, there is only one LA. Los Angeles!
  24. theilian

    Reading Between the Lines

    And the pi moment would be right before 16 hr.
  25. theilian

    Spring

    Ilian, Where exactly is here? Here would be LA, USA Today it's more manageable mid 70's.
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