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theilian

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Everything posted by theilian

  1. theilian

    Cicero's Death

    Since posting this, I came across an article 'Color-Blindness: Cicero's Death, Declamation, and the Production of History' by Matthew B. Roller So not so original idea, but hand theory is still mine In fact, I was thrilled to be vindicated in my little detective work. Anyway, Roller believes that declamation tradition on the theme of Cicero's death started at least in early Augustan era if not triumviral period. This puts declamatory tradtion much earlier than I thought - contemporary if not earlier than historical accounts by Tiro, Nepos, and Pollio. If so, one would imagine that influence of declamation on subsequent historical account (Plutarch and since) on Cicero's death would be even more pervasive. According to Roller, imperial imaging of Cicero was being shaped within at most a generation of the event itself. Also particularly interesting is declamation about Cicero's killer, Popillius, which became a separate theme of its own from death-of-Cicero themes. Popillius appears in various (at least 7) accounts of history and is thoroughly co-opted into history. In Plutarch, we learn that Popillius was a parricide who was successfully defended by Cicero, and we know from Seneca the Elder, Popillius the parricide was already current in declamaton. But Seneca, after checking declamation traditon against historiographical accounts, surmised that the charge of parricide is declamatory fabrication. Roller goes further and suggests that entire tradition that Cicero defended Popillius at all, on any charge, is a fabrication created in declamation noting that his name appears only in connection with death-of-Cicero tradition. As Roller notes, for instance, in Livy and Bruttedius's accounts, Popillius is a legionary soldier and Bassus calls him a veteran. All these suggest a humble origin of Cicero's killer. However, by Plutarch's time, he becomes a military tribune, an aristocratic position. In later accounts (Appian, Dio, Maximus), Popillius gains a cognomen 'Laenas', also suggesting aristocratic origin (though Appian says he's a centurion, which is unlikely to be held by an aristocrat). In either case, it is unlikely that a humble legionary would have been defended by Cicero and if the killer was significant enough to be defended by Cicero, there would be more reference to the trial outside the death-of-Cicero tradition. Roller doesn't mention this, but I'd like to note: His actions (like Antony's reaction to Cicero's head) also become more outrageous with each retelling. In Maximus, he is described to carry out Antony's order with joy and gladness. In Appian, he becomes even incompetent "drew his head out of the litter and cut it off, striking it three times, or rather sawing it off by reason of his inexperience". (Gory details for the sake of pathos is also one of hallmarks of declamation.) In Dio's narration, he even builds "a statue of himself "a statue of himself sitting crowned beside his victim's head, with an inscription that recorded his name and his deed." This progression in Popillus' villany is mirrored likewise in Antony's reaction to Cicero's head as I mentioned before. I find all this fascinating because it allows us to see the probable process by which a historical fact is embellished further and further and becomes more of a stuff of legend.
  2. theilian

    Why Do You Like Rome?

    I like Rome, especially Late Republican period for mainly two reasons. First, I am fascinated by the weird mixture of something so familiar (like election, law courts, and even name of months) and yet so foreign and violent (like proscription, games, and corrupt emperors). Especially with their politics, combination of polite civility and unbelievable violence is quite shocking. Another reason is that this period comes down to us so vividly through various sources (especially letters). The Greek civilization is so much more accomplished and imaginative, and if we can get to know them better, no doubt more fascinating. But compared to Romans, they seem rather far away and distant, and maybe in too idealized picture like their statues. But with Romans, we see wrinkles and warts and all.
  3. theilian

    Cicero's letters

    BTW, I think it's only right to post what Cicero has to say about this. In his 2nd Philippic, where he rather histronically attacks Antony for making his letter public: Can you imagine why his reaction would be now? Quite a read, isn't it? I also like how Caelius so casually ask Cicero to write a book and dedicate it to himself:
  4. theilian

    Frank Miller's 300

    But considering that the Spartans were trained and lived for this type of glory, I wonder how much of sacrifice and heroism this was for them. Theirs is a different kind of heroism from those who enjoy life and do not value glorious death as much but still fight against desperate odds. Plus, the worship of perfect body in the movie reminds me of Sontag's take on fascism of Leni Riefenstahl. Besides, I have nothing against physical courage or heroism in itself, but I find that it often serves as a smokescreen for anti-intellectualism.
  5. theilian

    Happy Birthday!!!!

    Happy Day After Birthday, Viggin
  6. theilian

    Spring

    Spring? It's summer with 85F here. Yesterday I slept in t-shirt and shorts.
  7. theilian

    Happy Birthday P-P!!

    Happy birthday P-P! Have a white robe hanging from your shoulders, a smoking altar circled by garlands, grains of incense crackling in the flames, with cakes to mark your birthday! (Ovid)
  8. theilian

    Frank Miller's 300

    Usually I'm not all that concerned with historical accuracy, especially with a movie that is so manifestly ahistorical. But what I find disturbing about the movie (which I didn't watch and I'm basing my opinion on what I heard about it) is glorification of Sparta and all it stands for - militarism and isolationism gone horribly wrong, sheer contempt for life and glorification of death. I give my thanks to Sparta for saving Greek civilization (though I am not sure how important Thermopylae really was), but aren't they really ancient version of Nazi?
  9. theilian

    Cicero's letters

    Thanks for the kind words. I posted these links one by one as I made them on HBO ROME forum. (Maybe I should done that here because there are too much material to go over. ) But in overall, I do wonder how typical or atypical Cicero was as a Roman (and I think this is an important issue as we depend greatly on his letters for insights to Roman tempora and mores). He was Italian, and apparently much more emotional and mercurial than most. But beyond that, was Cicero very unusual as paterfamilia? And most of all, how typical was Cicero in his decision regarding the civil war? In the most recent installment 'Caesar vs. Pompey <2>', Cicero is under great deal of pressure to choose between Pompey and Caesar, and it was interesting to see a myriad of factors he was considering in his (in)decision. The good of republic does take top priority, but almost equal priority is given to issue of personal obligation that he thinks he owes to Pompey and Caesar respectively. He seemed particularly concerned about appearing ungrateful. (And other considerations include: his reputation, relationship with hanger-ons of each side, welfare of his family, personal safety, etc) In any case, from his letters, it seems clear that there were well-defined parties (Optimates and Populares) that were based on principle but personal relationship came very close in importance in Republican politics. Can you share what this is about? I am very curious.
  10. theilian

    Cicero's Death

    Yes, this complicates the narrative. Especially, I find it interesting that Plutarch discounts a story that Cicero was betrayed by freed slave of Quintus Cicero by saying that Tiro does not mention it. So how much of Plutarch's story is from Tiro? Is Popilius story attested by Tiro? I guess there is no way to know. (There is very dubious story of crows helping Cicero in Plutarch - and repeated by Appian - this is probably from Tiro, I'd imagine.) MPC, do you know which of those sources are other than Maximus, Plutarch, and Appian? I'd be very interested to know.
  11. theilian

    Cicero's Death

    Pilus, I agree with you. The main part of Cicero's death remains same throught the stories. It's really small parts where embellisment (I think) seem to appear. But I think it's remarkable that 2 hands become 1 hand in the history of narrative. And I think the perspective of the time has influenced this change. Totally agree. It amazes me how many of us have so different interpretation of the events. And it's really fun to try truth behind all the polemics and prejudices. Here, in small ways, I feel somewhat like a detective trying to find what really happened on that Dec. 7, 43BC even though these are admittedly only a minor detail. So on the light topic, do you think that Fulvia really hacked Cicero's tongue wiht hairpin?
  12. theilian

    Cicero's Death

    Thank you for kind words. I find the story of Cicero's death and subsequent retelling interesting because I feel like I can see the process of fiction entering history. How accurate this view woluld be, I don't know. I also find the story of Popillius interesting. He's said to be a parricide, then exactly how many parricide case did Cicero defend?! I think it's possible that this detail was added to Popilius from famous parricide case which made Cicero famous, Roscio of Ameria . Also I have no idea in what context Seneca disputes him being assassin, and would like to know more about that. I heard of the declamations of Cremutius Cordus and Bruttedius Niger. In any case, I doubt I can go much farther into this amateur 'research' because I don't know no Latin.
  13. theilian

    Philippi (Episode 18)

    MPC, your critique of the series is the best I've read so far. I totally agree with you.
  14. theilian

    Caesar & Cicero.

    Cicero tried to sever the triumvirate shortly before, but Caesar succeeded in renewing triumvirate at the Conference of Lucca. Pompey brought pressure to Cicero especially reminding him of his brothers' pledge that Cicero would behave if recalled from exile. In his letters, he explains his turnabout that Optimates expected to fight the triumvirate without offering any protection to him. He also found comfort in believing that he was in Pompey's debt. I guess honorable thing to do for him at this point is to retire from politics, which he did but after doing more services for triumvirate agaiinst his will. From his letters, we know he was pretty agonized about the whole thing.
  15. You mean, Tiro, the hand-servant of Cicero? Yes. The bald guy who's riding together with Cicero. About second philippic, there is more web-friendly version here, but I think it's same text.
  16. Was anyone else disappointed that Tiro was so ugly in the episode? I first noticed in the 2X02 episode, but thought that it couldn't possibly Tiro.
  17. theilian

    Your Favourite Roman City

    How about Baiae? Sounds like a fun place.
  18. theilian

    Hbo Rome Second Season

    There is going to be Marcus Agrippa after all
  19. theilian

    G J Caesar's 'Honourable' Enemies

    I'm sure I'm hardly the person to suggest this. But I think it's mistake to apply modern moral/interpretation to time that's two millenia ago. Nevertheless, we will continue to do so and how each generation viewed them in the last 2000 years is itself quite interesting. In a way, their individual virtues and faults are not the paramount importance in our judgement. They rather became bigger than what they were and came to symbolize bigger picture - monarchy vs republicanism, order vs chaos, progress vs conservatism, practicality vs principles, etc. So when Europe had kings, Caesar was of course to admired. It didn't matter how he achieved the power and whether the power itself was justified. Chrisitianity was also favorable to Caesar, whose empire was thought to be God's chosen medium of spreading the faith. But when monarchy was to be demolished, the heroes of Roman republic were to be inspiration. it doesn't really matter what kind of 'republic' it was. In more modern times, Caesar is viewed more favorably thanks to social issues, but yet victims of dictatorship will again be less sympathetic to Caesar, and probably it has not much to do with Caesar's individual qualities. I am hardly knowledgeable about Roman history (but I'm willing to learn), but it seems to me the compromise reached after Caesar's death was in a way established also in the way Romans viewed the struggle. Of course, Caesar was to be worshipped, yet Romans (at least aristocrats who wrote history or left literature) were soon longing for the good old days of Republic when there was no emperor to grovel at. So I think both Caesar and Cato/Brutus became heroes while Mark Antony, like sacrificial lamb, came to become the villain whether deservedly or not.
  20. theilian

    Hbo Rome Second Season

    I watched the first episode of the second season. Others at HBO and TVWP are calling it the best episode ever, but I'm not sure I agree. (You can get the episode 1 DVD at Best Buy or Circuit City with purchase of HBO DVD or via torrent) Some notable things from first episode: The spoiler below contains only the details regarding historical figures/representation. I won' spoil stories about Pullo, Vorenus, etc. After Caesar's death, Antony is pursued by Quintus Pompey and his gang. Later, it's revealed that Brutus gave explicit order not to harm Antony, but that Cassius gave different order to Quintus. Predictably, it's Octavian who comes up with idea of amnesty and continuation of Caesar's acts. It seems that Cicero's death is being set as to be 'cathartic' event. He makes a brief appearance to Brutus' house praising them as immortal liberators. Antony also shows up and hears Cicero saying these things. Cicero insists to Antony that he was not involved in 'deplorable act ' and has Brutus confirm the fact. Antony presents his compromise and waits outside while inside conspirators discuss. Cicero says it's not too late to kill Antony. He's in their hands. He adds that he's not advising a certain course of action but simply stating the facts. Brutus, sarcastically, insists that he won't do what Cicero is 'not' urging. Right after the compromise is agreed, Brutus and Antony kiss each other. After Brutus goes inside, Antony nonchalantly walks to Quintus Pompey and slits his throat right in front of Brutus' house. Caesar's funeral gets somewhat Pharsalia treatment. We see Brutus and Antony preparing for the big day(Antony's preparation being ****ing Octavia, but it's not explicit shown. So what's the point? ), but never see their speeches. So no Romans, friends, countrymen here. It is just described in much later scene by some ruffian in a bar. Shots of angry mob in a very short montage. Later Brutus and Cassisus are shown in sweat as Antony smilingly suggests that maybe his speech was a tad bit too intellectual for the occasion. He offers them tour of Asian grain supplies and although Brutus insists that he will not run away, they leave Rome.
  21. theilian

    Hbo Rome Second Season

    Hmmm, I thought the way story had been set that Vorenus would do the service while Pullo would have to kill his own son Caesarion.
  22. theilian

    Hbo Rome Second Season

    Somone in TWOP looked at the IMDB cast info for future episodes and posted the following: So it seems the timeline is: Cicero meets the sword on episode #3, Brutus in #6, Antony and Cleopatra in #10. BTW, the titles of upcoming episodes are:
  23. theilian

    Which of lost works do you miss most?

    According to the article that I linked above, Galen wrote in Greek and left no less than 2 million words (20% of extant Greek writings). That sounds rather dubious, but just mentioning.
  24. theilian

    Cicero, Great Statesman Or Over-rated

    I think Cicero's head and hand(s) being on public display is about the only thing that the article is right.
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