Thurinius
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Posts posted by Thurinius
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Any reason why you're interested in Nero, in particular? You mentioned you've read several books about him. Just curious...
I've read lots of books on Nero because there are a lot of books on Nero if you compare with say Tiberius. Reasons why there are so many I would suggest are manifold: Nero is a known name so an easier sell, first Christian persecution, whopping big fire and Nero is just so gloriously ott!
Plus I write historical fiction on 68/69 ad so it's been research (a most enjoyable research).
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I wouldn't mind another book on Alex the great IF it took a new angle. And not just a rehash of events.
I've snoozed through a ton of Nero books that told me nothing new until I stumbled upon Edward champlins work which truly opened my eyes to other aspects of that much written about man.
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No more Alexander the Great biographies, please!
Yep count me in on that one.
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Cleopatra as a feminist 'African' icon does not do well under his scrutiny either.
You mean because of all the drugs and the throwing herself at anything in a toga, right? And that she probably considered herself more Greek than African?
Oh come on, two Romans who made a useful alliance for Egypt. Can we now talk about that 'slut' Caesar and him throwing himself at anyone with a pair if breasts.
On topic, nothing more on Caligula please.
He was mad.
He wasn't mad just testing the limits of absolute power.
He was mad and we know what with (diagnosis from some scant passages written two millennia ago)
He wasn't mad but one can understand him having some scores to settle
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But you need the social mobility to get close to the emperor to reap the benefits.
I suppose Nymphidius Sabinus as callistus' grandson would have been part of the imperial court prior to his appointment as prefect.
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Okay here's a question for those of you who know your roman army (I don't in any detail).
Given the extremely important role of the praetorian prefect and his influence over the emperor, would you say there is greater social mobility in the guard than the regular army?
Sejanus was from a non distinguished equestrian family,
Tigellinus was a former horse breeder.
Nymphidius Sabinus was the grandson of an imperial slave
And so forth
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Who is your favourite prefect?
Burrus was probably the only sensible one of the lot.
Tigellinus had style.
And most of them were tricksy buggers.
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To go back to the original question, was Tiberius a swell guy?
Despite disputing his sexploits, on balance I'd say he wasn't. He tried hard in the early years but he had a tough act to follow in Augustus and really he didn't have the necessary personality. He wanted to foster independence in the senate but his insular, introspective personality panicked them about his intentions. They can't read him so they try to impress him and that's when the treason trials begin.
In the end you can see Tiberius just give up, hold his hands up and bugger off to Capri to leave them to it.
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I think you might be overstating it,. Can't say the current government has any part to play in religion at all, yes by history we have a state religion but it has no powers. Just like by history we have a monarch who also has no power.
And the state religion c of e is extremely critical of the government, so pretty independent then.
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It's local and European elections, turn out is always low. For the last general election I had to queue for 20 minutes and some folk didn't get to vote because the ballot closed before they could get in.
36 per cent going to church here? More like 10 per cent I'd say.
Spotted dick is lovely by the way but sticky toffee pudding is better, yum.
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All unnamed witnesses, no named lovers unlike say Caligula whom Suetonius describes as being the lover of mnester and Marcus Lepidus.
Nero's named lovers including sporus and doryphorus.
Galba's male lover icelus, etc etc.
That's what makes me doubt the tales.
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I wonder if your thinking of Caligula, he certainly was groomed by Tiberius as successor and spent time with him on Capri where he supposedly learnt his cruel ways.
But Claudius certainly bad for sexual misconduct though the only emperor to produce the statutory three kids (by different wives but hey)
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How Claudius turned out? How so? Sorry I'm not quite following you
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Not convinced he was a pervert. These accusations only surface when he retires to Capri, so No direct eye witnesses. Of his time in Rome he was said to be deeply in love with his first wife but not his second, Julia. But no stories of any perversions, not even a mistress. I think he was an able administrator but unfortunately his personality meant whatever he did he was never likely to be liked.
I see him as Gordon brown succeeding the flashy and charming tony Blair (Augustus)
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I should possibly do some kind of deal. Anyone who spots a mistake (spelling and grammar not included) I will email them the sequel Galba's Men free of charge!,
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Yes. Ok to publicise this way? Will remove if not.
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Whilst Emperor Nero plays with his new water organ and a cross dressing eunuch, his wily secretary Epaphroditus manages the governance issues. However, times are changing.
Praetorian Prefect Nymphidius Sabinus, a man so straight he'd make a decent spirit level, is disgusted by the moral degeneracy of Nero's court. Motivated by the traditional Roman values of valour and nobility and with a stack of mother issues to rival Nero's, Sabinus is determined to remove the Emperor from a throne he does not deserve.
Blinded by his own righteousness Sabinus is ignorant of what he has unleashed - The Year of the Four Emperors!
Available here for your enjoyment, chance to feel superior when you discover a historical inaccuracy (surely not!)
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Hmm the link works for me. Perhaps there was an issue when you tried and yes I'll fess up to being the author.
It was enormous fun to research (lots of oh so hard research trips to Rome).
I have tackled the question of whether when Nymphidius Sabinus ousts Nero he is working in league with Galba or whether he is taking advantage of the situation for his own gains, i.e. sees the way the wind is blowing and then decides whose side he needs to be on.
Historically I don't think it's clear, dramatically it makes for a better story if he is in league with Galba.
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Well actually it's the year before the year of the Four Emperors being set in 68 AD.
But that's the year it all kicked off!
68/69 AD is my favourite time in Ancient Rome because just so much d*mn stuff happens. And it is fascinating to get behind the motivations of the Would-be Emperors involved.
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While most sources express deep hostility to Nero that coming from the Senatorial ranks and probably all the vicious stories about him are untrue (such as he enjoy the burning of Rome etc.) and yes it's true he was popular with the masses.
He was nevertheless a bad emperor, didn't have a real vision that he could act on, didn't understand the important of the emperor connection with the military and at the sign of the first real crises lost his nerve and committed suicide even thought he still had a good part of the army loyal to him. in short he was an amateur.
I think he saw himself more like a sort of ancient equivalent to Elvis or Michael Jackson, and attempted to be well-liked by the people. The idea for rebuilding Rome and putting all art there was a lot a consequence of his Hellenophilia and his vision for a sort of reborn utopian ideal world. The same could be said about his plans to weep and sing for the rebelling forces. The man just wanted to be loved.
Which makes him sort of endearing
Though yep agree that he just didn't have what it takes to be an Emperor. Just not intelligent enough. He couldn't play the game that Augustus does so successfully, namely the more power you hold the less you flaunt it.
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I think we're all forgetting he kicked his wike to death and I think she might even have been pregnant. People like Julius Caesar were not cruel like Nero. Caesar was only really cruel in warfare and even then less so then other men of his time so to say they were all cruel is an exaggeration. I think it should be noted as well that Nero killed his own mother, if that doesn't scream sycho I don't know what does.
It is of course possible that he kicked Poppaea to death, though I doubt it. Some authors mention a fever, others mention childbirth as the reasons for her death. I know some outrageous gossip about modern leaders, like for example that George W Bush as a kid liked to put firecrackers into frogs to watch them explode, or that Che Guevara was a zoophile.
Most ancient writers even though hostile seem to recognise that Poppaea's death was an accident. He certainly mourned her greatly afterwards and clearly regretted her death.
But yep he did order his mother's execution - which is about as low as you can go.
The impression I get with Nero is that his world was created for him by those around him. A world where he could imagine he was a charioteer, a poet, a singer.
He was, though, undeniably popular with the people and in the Eastern Provinces. The Greeks loved him after he freed them from taxation. His popularity continued way after his death with many false Neros.
I agree the sources are hostile, Augustus bumped off a huge number of people but this is skipped over and forgotten.
What I like about Nero is that he feels like a real person, you get a real sense of his character from the sources; both good and bad. And boy, he had style!
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Because he derived personal prestige from his close affiliation from Augustus, because he didn't want the risk of being so exposed politically, and probably because he was less capable politically and knew it. Not everyone wants to be top dog. You will find plenty of people are happy to walk beside someone who is.
I would have thought too that he didn't have the right background. For all the claims thrown at Augustus by Mark Antony, he was blue blood. Agrippa was not.
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I am always surprised how little attention is paid to Nymphidius Sabinus - surely one of the most pivotal people in the year of the four emperors (though actually he doesn't make it to 69).
I think it is debatable as to whether he conspired with Galba to get the Guards to desert Nero or whether he just takes advantage of the situation.
I was wondering what everyone else thought?
Based on the outcome, it would seem doubtful that Sabinus conspired with Galba. It seems much more likely that he acted on his own (or in league with other local players), as one opportunist among many in this volatile time period. Had he been one of Galba's men, there would have been no reason for Galba to appoint a replacement or for the Praetorians to execute him upon Galba's approach to Rome... unless of course Sabinus got a bit too grandiose in his own designs once the leash was loosed just a bit (which is quite possible). From what we know though, Sabinus did not receive an award of any kind (at least by political or military appointment), so playing such a pivotal role on Galba's behalf just doesn't add up for me.
I think I generally agree with you, though Plutarch makes it clear that Sabinus' behaviour in Rome was causing Galba some anxiety, so not completely inconceivable that he was a useful pawn easily disposed of when the time came.
What he does though, in declaring himself Emperor, is pretty unbelievable given his own background. How could he ever think he would be accepted? It reeks of desperation or madness or both.
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I am always surprised how little attention is paid to Nymphidius Sabinus - surely one of the most pivotal people in the year of the four emperors (though actually he doesn't make it to 69).
I think it is debatable as to whether he conspired with Galba to get the Guards to desert Nero or whether he just takes advantage of the situation.
I was wondering what everyone else thought?
A Day At The Theatre - Post your Roman fiction here
in Colosseum
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Love the line 'one did not get to know Julia puncher one merely experienced her'