Whose is Macedonia, whose is Alexander?

[Viggen]

i missed that, pretty interessting...

 

Open Letter to the President....

 

Dear President Obama,

We, the undersigned scholars of Graeco-Roman antiquity, respectfully request that you intervene to clean up some of the historical debris left in southeast Europe by the previous U.S. administration. On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the

[Maladict]

Quite a few respectable names on that list, I'm surprised they'd let themselves be involved in messy Balkan politics.

I don't think I'm buying this.

[Segestan]

There is a good deal of research done on this topic............. http://www.livius.org/maa-mam/macedonia/macedonia.html

 

Modern Greek state and local politics is itself an invention of western influence.

[Kosmo]

Quite a few respectable names on that list, I'm surprised they'd let themselves be involved in messy Balkan politics.

I don't think I'm buying this.

 

Please, Greeks are pathetic even after Balkan standards.

[Ludovicus]

The same motivation is to be seen in school maps that show the pseudo-greater Macedonia, stretching from Skopje to Mt. Olympus and labeled in Slavic. The same map and its claims are in calendars, bumper stickers, bank notes, etc., that have been circulating in the new state ever since it declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. Why would a poor land-locked new state attempt such historical nonsense? Why would it brazenly mock and provoke its neighbor?

 

I agree that the aim of a "greater Macedonia" is quite reckless.

[Segestan]

Seems the debate is very emotional on both sides, some things never change.

 

 

 

"As you know, Congressional representatives, Pentagon, and State Department officials publicly acknowledge Macedonia?s material commitment of blood and treasure on behalf of missions that support the fundamental values of both the United States and Macedonia. They also recognize the rapid progress that Macedonia has made in developing a pluralistic, representative democracy -- characterized by implementation of free market principles and the rule of law -- during its now 20 years of independence. Last fall, nineteen House Representatives and four Senators sent letters to President Obama urging his administration to support Macedonia?s accession to NATO. Moreover, the United States recognizes Macedonia?s constitutional name: the Republic of Macedonia. An additional 131 other countries also recognize Macedonia by the rightful name its citizens have chosen for their country.

In stark contrast, Greece

[DecimusCaesar]

Seems the debate is very emotional on both sides, some things never change.

 

That's true. A quick glance at any youtube video on ancient Greek history will see arguements raging back and forth on this very subject. At one time I heard that the Greeks and the Macedonians were going to build huge Alexander statues on each oters borders, just to irritate each other. Amazed to see so mnay names on that petition though, inclduing Robin Lane Fox and Paul Cartledge. I had no idea they were so passionate about modern politics.

[Auris Arrectibus]

Then, the Republic of Macedonia could also claim the heritage of the final dynasty of egyptian pharaohs.

A statue of Cleopatra next to the one of Alexander?

 

Jeroen H de Lange,

Amsterdam

[Northern Neil]

There is a good deal of research done on this topic............. http://www.livius.org/maa-mam/macedonia/macedonia.html

 

Modern Greek state and local politics is itself an invention of western influence.

Indeed so. However, the modern state does encompass the vast majority of Greek speaking people, exceptions being Cyprus, and enclaves in eastern Turkey. Most if not all ethnic Greeks would have disappeared from the area now covered by the republic of Macedonia in the centuries following the first slavic invasion in 602. Thus, it is plain silliness for the Slavic speaking Republic of Macedonia to claim Alexander as 'theirs' simply because their nation covers what used to be a portion of the original Macedon. In much the same way, it would be silliness for Germany to claim Burgundy from France, simply because it is named after a tribe of Germans who fleetingly settled there.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Northern Neil

[Melvadius]

Just a few thought from the sidelines of what could be a very nasty and long-runnign saga:

 

From a Classicists point of view some very good points have been made but looked at from what is possibly a more humanist angle I can well understand the desire of the RoM to align themselves with anything but the Slavic heritage bequeathed to them by Yugoslavia and its precedecessors.

 

IIRC there is an argument that due to population movements, notably under the Ottoman's, there may well actually be a 'Macedonian' heritage amongst some of the population. However possibly of more moment to the Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonaia (FYROM) and now claimed Republic of Macedonia, there were a series of late 19th and early 20th century revolts against their erstwhile rulers. These brought together a combined 'Macedonian' resistance irrespective of ethnicity or religion and this 'shared' heritage will have strongly influenced their choice of name.

 

At this stage in their existence irrespective of the rights or wrongs of their name choice, complaints by thousands of classicists and/or the entirity of Greece I don't think that the FYROM is going to give up on continuing to claim a Macedonian heritage for themselves in the way they have.

 

 

Melvadius exits quickly to the nearest foxhole...

[Kosmo]

Macedonia was not only the name of a state in antiquity but of a region since. If the Slav portions of Macedonia would have been annexed for good by Bulgaria in 1878, 1913 or 1941 there would have been no Macedonian people because they would have probably been absorbed by the closely related Bulgarians but Greece played a major role in preventing that.

Macedonians are building a national identity now and they have no choice of another name for themselves but the name of the region they live in and the name of the Yugoslav republic they are continuing.

Greek claims over Macedonia are weak because the region was probably always multicultural with strong illyrian elements (besides there is no proof that Macedonians were Greek), then largely romanised and later became the cultural/political center of Balkan slavs. During ottoman rule it also had strong turkish, albanian, romanian (vlahs) and jewish populations.

In a fairly similar situation Romania never tried to stop the former soviet republic of Moldova to became a independent state with this name despite the fact that Romania has a much stronger claim to the name Moldova then Greece does to Macedonia because Moldova was one of the principalities that fused to create Romania.

[Auris Arrectibus]

Might be of interest:

Cultural identities in the Illyrian provinces (2nd century BC to 3rd century AD): old problems re-examined.

 

See article

http://historyoftheancientworld.com/2011/08/cultural-identities-in-the-illyrian-provinces-2nd-century-bc-to-3rd-century-ad-old-problems-re-examined/

 

Jeroen H de Lange,

Amsterdam