original pronnciation of "Pilus Primus"

[Pedis Expeditus]

Pretty basic question. Sorry if it is too basic for this forum. My first post. Redirect if approprite.

[Melvadius]

Pretty basic question. Sorry if it is too basic for this forum. My first post. Redirect if approprite.

 

I suspect that it is almost exactly as you may suspect however, my own Latin is too flaky to really be certain when answering this so hopefully one of the others can help out.

 

Just to confirm that as you have asked for the 'original pronounciation' I assume that you really do wish the Republican/ Early Principate pronounciation rather than Church Latin or one of the other later variants.

[GhostOfClayton]

. . . and I think it's more usually "Primus Pilus" rather than "Pilus Primus".

 

. . . and whatever you do, don't translate it as "First Spear" (common misconception!)

[caldrail]

Misconception? No, actually, I don't think it is. The Romans were very literal about naming ranks and formations and the term 'First Spear' to them was a very meaningful phrase. To believe the Romans used a modern rank system is merely foisting our culture on top of theirs. Theirs was more direct, more feral, and the phrase 'First Spear' very appropriate in my view.

[GhostOfClayton]

Misconception? No, actually, I don't think it is. The Romans were very literal about naming ranks and formations and the term 'First Spear' to them was a very meaningful phrase. To believe the Romans used a modern rank system is merely foisting our culture on top of theirs. Theirs was more direct, more feral, and the phrase 'First Spear' very appropriate in my view.

 

If the combined intelligence, experience and knowlege of all UNRV contributors can't crack the truth of this one, we should hang our heads in shame.

 

So, the translation of 'Pilus' as 'file' . . . does this have a military origin with 'Pilum'? Is 'Pilus' ever used in a non-military context?

 

Let's be having your opinions.

[Klingan]

Pilus, pili (chief) and Pilum, pili (the old good fellow javelin) are actually not the same words, although it certainly looks like they had a common origin.

[GhostOfClayton]

although it certainly looks like they had a common origin.

 

 

The origin is key. If Caldrail is right (and he makes a good case), the 'chief/rank' derives from the 'spear'. But then, Centurions didn't carry pili (spears).

[docoflove1974]

But semantically, I could conceive of it. It's common that the chief of a tribe has a different weapon than the others, or at least a different style/size. While this is only a guess, I could see the semantic link to the early tribal days, perhaps even something between Proto-Indo-European and Old Latin, which links the chief of an Italic tribe carrying a spear, or a large spear. I would have to know the Oscan and Umbrian versions of these words--something that I don't have right now--and we would have to know how pre-Roman tribes functioned.

 

Getting back to the original question, this site from Ohio State University will help you with pronunciation issues.

[Klingan]

I might be able to check the Oscan/Umbrian tomorrow as they have the absolutely most recent (2009) comparative grammar (latin, Oscan Umbrian) at the library here.

 

On a side note about the spear - wasn't the spear the normal weapon, not something special during the pre-Roman times?

[Maladict]

Pretty basic question. Sorry if it is too basic for this forum. My first post. Redirect if approprite.

 

As I was always taught it would be "pee-loose pre-moose".

[Ingsoc]

The Cassell's Latin Dictionary say that Pilus was originally a reference to "a division of triarii in the Roman Army", that make sense since originally the Primus Pilus was the commander of a triarii manipulus.