Byzantium

[pompeius magnus]

This was a topic a while back and thought I would start off this new forum with it. when did the Byzantine empire change from Roman to Greek.

[PerfectimusPrime]

When they started to talk greek.

[Guest Scanderbeg]

When they started to talk greek.

 

Didnt they always speak Greek in the community? If I remember the area that they coontrolled was heavily influenced by greek Hellenization. While the citizens spoke Greek the language of the law was Latin. The whole change occured when Heraclius chnaged his title to the Greek word for Emperor. That officialized Greek as the language. But they always so themselves as Romans.

[Fatboy]

I agree, if one is looking to choose a specific point when the Empire became truly Greek the reign of Heraclius is probably the best candidate. This is usually treated as the same question as the " when did the Roman Empire end and the Byzantine Empire begin? " debate.

Personally, from the fall of the West onwards I always think of the Eastern Empire as Byzantine regardless, after all it is only a term of convenience.

[Viggen]

The emperor Heraclius (610 to 641) made Greek the official language, ending the last remnants of Latin and ancient Roman tradition within the Empire. Many historians mark the sweeping reforms made during the reign of Heraclius as the breaking-point with Byzantium's ancient Roman past; it is common to refer to the empire as "Byzantine" instead of "East Roman" from this point onwards.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

And that is why I dislike Heraclius, that Greek-loving fool. I love Rome too much

[Tobias]

And that is why I dislike Heraclius, that Greek-loving fool. I love Rome too much

 

I think it is fair to say that Heraclius was far from a fool; He sacked the innermost areas of the Persian Empire and saved the empire from potential conquest by the Persians.

Heraclius would have realised that the people were becoming more and more aware of their greek heritage; after all, a "Roman" Empire was more of an ideal then a race then, and Heraclius merely accepted that latin was no longer the dominant language, they weren't located in Italian Rome and the people considered themselves different entities from the original Romans. Heraclius also was the last Emperor to come from the latin west but the first to adapt the title "Basileus" over "imperator".

However, the people still considered themsellves Roman; a fact proven by the discovery that some peoples in Greece by the 20th century were still calling themselves "Rhoamaoi" (Roman).

[Philhellene]

I cite Scanderbeg

 

If I remember the area that they coontrolled was heavily influenced by greek Hellenization. While the citizens spoke Greek the language of the law was Latin.

 

It`s not actually true. The greek language was an offical language of administration of the Roman East.

 

The whole change occured when Heraclius chnaged his title to the Greek word for Emperor. That officialized Greek as the language.

 

Where did you read it? Roman emperors (of united empire) were always using greek titles in Eastern law documents, coins etc.

 

 

I cite Fatboy

 

This is usually treated as the same question as the "when did the Roman Empire end and the Byzantine Empire begin? " debate.

 

Well, I think the Byzantine Empire was always Roman. And why do you think that it happened?

Edited December 1, 2005 by Philhellene

[eggers]

probably when Emperor Diocletian divided the empire into 2 halves round about 285 A.D.

 

This, afterall, effectively divided the greek and roman parts, and gave the greek part an empire. Only a matter of time when a different culture is given back it's own affairs after so many years of "foreign" rule, i guess.

Edited December 1, 2005 by eggers

[Philhellene]

Diocletian divided the empire into 4 parts. And then the Empire was reunited and divided many times and when it was divided, there were not only 4 but sometimes more or less then 4 parts. And thier size wasn`t stable. I think the first time, when the empire was divided, occured during the reign of Gallienus when he made Odaenathus his co-ruler.

[Philhellene]

I forgot to add that the year of fall of Western Roman Empire is the year of reunion of Roman Empire as well, because Odoacer sent all regalia of Western emperors to Constantinople.

[Neos Dionysos]

The Byzantines were always Roman. Maybe not in our eyes but certainly in thier own and thier contemporaries. The name for thier Empire, while Greek was still the literal translation of the Latin form for 'Roman Empire'. The West however, did not like to consider themselves under the rule of the East and so set up thier own structure starting with Charlamagne. Regardless of what the feelings and sentiments were, the land of Anatolia and especially the lands of Thrace, Macedonia and Greece were called Rumilia by the Turks well into the modern age which stood for, 'Land of the Romans' and until recent times, many in these regions would refer to themselves as Romans, though nowadays it is more of a folk name than an offical recognition one. Much of what we are led to beleive about the Byzantines and even the name Byzantine comes from the European Scholars in France who coined the term, thus making them seperate from Rome and not the same, Gibbon carried on this legacy by writing a terrible history on her and blaming so many problems on her society. We must also keep in mind that there is still the hatred of the scism between the churches and that the West hate such a contempt for the East that they sacked the city in the 'Fourth Crusade'. Only in the last century have we really begun to question the established status quo on Byzantium and the Eastern Roman Empire and begin to see it is not as bad, nor as truely sperate from Roman heritage. Yes they spoke a different language and there were drastic changes here and there, but all societies do this, Rome from the founding of the Republic was much different from Rome of the Empire, and so it would be the same of the 'second Rome' in the East. In my eyes, Rome did not actually fall until 1461ad, when Trezbiond fell to the Turks and even then, as Tobias has pointed out and I have stated, people still called themselves Roman in certain parts of the old Byzantine sphere.

[Philhellene]

The West however, did not like to consider themselves under the rule of the East and so set up thier own structure starting with Charlamagne.

 

The West may be didn`t, but the Eastern emperors conquered some Western territories, especially Italian and Sicilian.

 

Much of what we are led to beleive about the Byzantines and even the name Byzantine comes from the European Scholars in France who coined the term...

 

Not exactly. The term "Byzantine" was invented by the German Hieronymus Wolff in 1562 AD. He named his edition of texts of "Byzantine" historians "Corpus Byzantinae Historiae".

Edited December 1, 2005 by Philhellene

[Neos Dionysos]

The West may be didn`t, but the Eastern emperors conquered some Western territories, especially Italian and Sicilian.

 

Yes, in the sixth century, Charlamagne does not come around until the 9th century when the West no longer wished to be under the rulership of the East, before then they still allowed the East to be over them in authority though over the years this attitude quickly began to fade.

 

Not exactly. The term "Byzantine" was invented by the German Hieronymus Wolff in 1562 AD. He named his edition of texts of "Byzantine" historians "Corpus Byzantinae Historiae".

 

Still, it does not change my point in the arguement that 'Byzantine' is an invention of European scholars well after the Eastern Romans were gone.

[Philhellene]

Yes, in the sixth century...

 

No, all the time. I think the last attemts to conquer something in the West there were in XI century.