JULIAN, VIDAL AND ME: Moving from the periphery to the centre

[RonPrice]

What follows is a prose-poetic-personal reflection on Gore Vidal's novel Julian. Does anyone have any views on this novel and on Vidal's lifelong critique of the Abrahamic religions and their monotheism among other features of their theology in addition to their long, complex and chequered history?-Ron Price, Tasmania

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Note: I thank Dudley Fitts(1903-1968), an American teacher, critic, poet, and translator, for his review of Julian in The New York Times written several years before he died. Fitts published translations of Alcestis of Euripides (1936), Antigone of Sophocles (1939), Oedipus Rex (1949), and The Oedipus Cycle (1949). These translations were praised for their clarity and poetic quality. I have quoted liberally from Fitts' review and have taken the liberty of not including quotation marks as well as often paraphrasing his words. I don't always do this. It is a liberty I often advised my students not to take when I was teaching history from 1967 to 2005.

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Gore Vidal(1925- ) was arguably the finest essayist in the English-speaking world in the last half of the 20th century. He was always on the periphery of my emerging literary and intellectual life while I lived in Canada(1943-1971) in my youth and young adulthood. When I moved to Australia(1971-2012) he was even further out on that periphery occupied as I was for years with teaching and lecturing, raising a family and various forms of community work with its many social responsibilities. During the years 1999 to 2005, I gradually retired from the world of FT, PT and volunteer jobs with their 70 hours a week of nose-to-the-grindstone life-narrative demands.

 

It was then, in the years 2006 to 2012, that I began to make-up for this hole, this lacuna, in my reading life. There was a host of missing parts in the general cultural attainments of my mind, of my literary life and I was free to read at my leisure on the many subjects and writers whose work I just did not have the time to take on during my young adulthood(20-40) and middle age(40-60).

 

In May 1964 Vidal

Edited May 18, 2012 by RonPrice

[barca]

His attempt to reimpose the old gods--or, rather, the old gods as seen through a mist of Mithras-worship and degenerating neo-Platonism--failed because he was utterly unrealistic in assessing the hearts of men and in evaluating the theological and political forces with which he had to contend. He was, it would seem, a schizophrenic, a philosopher and man of letters, yet one of the most spectacular military commanders since Julius Caesar. He was also a fanatical conservative in religion, yet a cynical and disillusioned exponent of freedom of worship; a sensualist, a man of the world, yet at the same time an almost compulsive ascetic. And, above all things, he was alive, enchanted with living, intensely and drivingly engaged.

 

 

 

One of the things that Julian didn't realize is that even in the height of Classical Rome, many elites and many philosophers didn't really believe in the pagan gods, but they didn't openly express their disbelief. The advances in Greco-Roman philosophy made the gods appear very non-spiritual and archaic. The God of Judaeism ws more spiritual in nature and was more compatible with the God of nature.

 

Whatever concerns he had about Christianity for its inferior intellectual appeal, didn't necessitate going back to paganism, which waas already dying out. He was attempting to ressurect a dead religion.

[RonPrice]

His attempt to reimpose the old gods--or, rather, the old gods as seen through a mist of Mithras-worship and degenerating neo-Platonism--failed because he was utterly unrealistic in assessing the hearts of men and in evaluating the theological and political forces with which he had to contend. He was, it would seem, a schizophrenic, a philosopher and man of letters, yet one of the most spectacular military commanders since Julius Caesar. He was also a fanatical conservative in religion, yet a cynical and disillusioned exponent of freedom of worship; a sensualist, a man of the world, yet at the same time an almost compulsive ascetic. And, above all things, he was alive, enchanted with living, intensely and drivingly engaged.

 

 

 

One of the things that Julian didn't realize is that even in the height of Classical Rome, many elites and many philosophers didn't really believe in the pagan gods, but they didn't openly express their disbelief. The advances in Greco-Roman philosophy made the gods appear very non-spiritual and archaic. The God of Judaeism ws more spiritual in nature and was more compatible with the God of nature.

 

Whatever concerns he had about Christianity for its inferior intellectual appeal, didn't necessitate going back to paganism, which waas already dying out. He was attempting to ressurect a dead religion.

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Thanks, barca(Tribunus Angusticlavius), for your apt response. The position of many philosophers in Rome, to say nothing of ancient Greece, is, as you say, utter skepticism regarding the pagan and polytheistic traditional religions. In addition, Julian was a man of unusually complex character. He was "the military commander, the theosophist, the social reformer, and the man of letters".(1) He was the last non-Christian ruler of the Roman Empire and it was his desire to bring the Empire back to its ancient Roman values in order to save it from dissolution according to Polymnia Athanassiadi, Pagan Monotheism in Late Antiquity.

Edited May 18, 2012 by RonPrice

[RonPrice]

Where did this democratic tradition in the USA truly begin? The ideas and practices that led to the development of the American democratic republic owe a debt to the ancient civilizations of Greece and Rome, the Protestant Reformation, and Gutenberg's printing press. But the Enlightenment of 17th-century Europe had the most immediate impact on the framers of the United States Constitution.

 

I have included this prose-poem below in this thread since the American Declaration of Independence of 1775 owed much to the civilization of Rome. Gore Vidal explores early American history in his novel Burr. The following piece of writing will keep this thread on topic, if only tangentially connected to the initial post.-Ron Price, Australia

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NOVELS

Scratching the surface of history

 

I

Edited May 19, 2012 by RonPrice

[Virgil61]

I read Julian years ago, sometime in the late 80s I think, and remember it being quite good. I may have to reread it. I certainly recommend it for anyone interested in this era. As an aside Vidal's Lincoln was an excellent read as well.

[caesar novus]

I never pursued gores works after seeing some of his tv debates seem to degenerate into clever cat fights. He described his little cliff cottage retreat just below ravello as where he wrote or got inspiration over the years. I made a point of exploring that neighborhood recently in a walk from ravello down to amalfi, which combined breathtaking sea vistas with picturesque cottages, olive groves, and the like. The inhabitants would only pop their heads over a stone wall for a second to see if my footsteps were of friend or foe, and i only encountered one fellow tourist. His perch must be almost the mirror of tiberians palace perched high on capri... they almost face eachother, but probably barely obsured by the sorrento penninsula. Actually he sold the place after losing the nimbleness needed to access those hill paths

Edited May 19, 2012 by caesar novus

[barca]

Where did this democratic tradition in the USA truly begin? The ideas and practices that led to the development of the American democratic republic owe a debt to the ancient civilizations of Greece and Rome, the Protestant Reformation, and Gutenberg's printing press. But the Enlightenment of 17th-century Europe had the most immediate impact on the framers of the United States Constitution.

 

I have included this prose-poem below in this thread since the American Declaration of Independence of 1775 owed much to the civilization of Rome.

 

 

 

Although I wouldn't want this discussion to degenerate into a right vs left political argument, I find it interesting that many of the modern "conservative" pundits think that these ideas came from the Bible, and that the US government is based primarily on Judeao-Christian principles. I brought this up on a previous thread:

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/topic/10509-judeo-christian-vs-greco-roman-influences-and-the-american-revol/page__hl__%2Bfounding+%2Bfathers

 

And here's a good book that supports the notion of the Greco-Roman world contributing to our form of government:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Greeks-Romans-Bearing-Gifts-Ancients/dp/0742556247

[caesar novus]

Not disagreeing with such issues, but i want to pass on some stimulating views i recently encountered. The u.s. revolution was originally all about preserving rights from the british glorious revolution a century before. Only after being refused standard british citizen rights did the u.s. attempt a modest leapfrog from there. Now i forget the roots of uk democracy, but i think it came in steps of restricting newly invited "emperor"s when the last one vainly self destructed.

 

Religion wasnt intended to be banned from early u.s. government... some new england states had official state churches for decades. Just keep the sect from being imposed at a national level. The founders were standard enlightenment deists, who do a lot of god talk but had an amazingly modern way of integrating science and humanism into faith. I wonder why that evolution didnt catch on more, and modern people feel they have to choose between old religion vs atheism vs new age faiths that dont quite fit. Of course most founders were fans of pagan republican romans and referred to them by name.

 

An austrians book about j goebbles suggested he won over the german left by selling hitler as a christ like version of lenin... a national savior rather than an atheistic technocrat. Sort of filling the void from departing from christian and roman roots. But the nazis went further in not wanting religion to detract from patriotism, such as catholics listening to a pope in rome. Author suggests their complaint against jews was they must seek a disruptive utopia now because their religion uniquely promises no afterlife, and thus cant be pliable citizens or submissive soldiers for nazi causes.

Edited May 19, 2012 by caesar novus

[Virgil61]

I never pursued gores works after seeing some of his tv debates seem to degenerate into clever cat fights. I believe he did describe his little cliff cottage retreat just below revello as where he wrote or got inspiration over the years. I made a point of exploring that neighborhood recently in a walk from ravello down to amalfi, which combined breathtaking sea vistas with picturesque cottages, olive groves, and the like. The inhabitants would only pop their heads over a stone wall for a second to see if my footsteps were of friend or foe, and only encountered one fellow tourist. His perch must be almost the mirror of tiberians palace perched high on capri... they almost face eachother, but probably barely obsured by the sorrento penninsula.

 

Vidal was an irritating SOB but one hell of a writer & a real public intellectual. For better or for worse he spoke what he thought was the truth and to hell with everyone else. His rivalries with Wm Buckley, Norman Mailer and Truman Capote were epic and I use that term for their sheer entertainment value. I wouldn't let his persona influence whether you read him or not, Julian is very much worth a read.

 

I remember Mailer really rubbed me the wrong way for similar reasons but I finally broke down and read The Naked and the Dead a couple of years ago. I'm very glad I did.

 

Where did this democratic tradition in the USA truly begin? The ideas and practices that led to the development of the American democratic republic owe a debt to the ancient civilizations of Greece and Rome, the Protestant Reformation, and Gutenberg's printing press. But the Enlightenment of 17th-century Europe had the most immediate impact on the framers of the United States Constitution.

 

I have included this prose-poem below in this thread since the American Declaration of Independence of 1775 owed much to the civilization of Rome.

 

Although I wouldn't want this discussion to degenerate into a right vs left political argument, I find it interesting that many of the modern "conservative" pundits think that these ideas came from the Bible, and that the US government is based primarily on Judeao-Christian principles. I brought this up on a previous thread:

 

http://www.unrv.com/...ding+%2Bfathers

 

And here's a good book that supports the notion of the Greco-Roman world contributing to our form of government:

 

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/0742556247

 

Looks like a fine book on the connections to Greece and Rome. The linkage between Polybius and the framers has been written about quite often throughout our history though I think the average person on the streets here in the U.S. isn't clued in on the connection.

 

To bring it back to topic a book like Julian, aimed at the larger reading public, makes a certain percentage of them reach for a Roman history book, Julian's writings or even a Livy or Polybius. All in all a good thing I think.

[RonPrice]

I never pursued gores works after seeing some of his tv debates seem to degenerate into clever cat fights. I believe he did describe his little cliff cottage retreat just below revello as where he wrote or got inspiration over the years. I made a point of exploring that neighborhood recently in a walk from ravello down to amalfi, which combined breathtaking sea vistas with picturesque cottages, olive groves, and the like. The inhabitants would only pop their heads over a stone wall for a second to see if my footsteps were of friend or foe, and only encountered one fellow tourist. His perch must be almost the mirror of tiberians palace perched high on capri... they almost face eachother, but probably barely obsured by the sorrento penninsula.

 

Vidal was an irritating SOB but one hell of a writer & a real public intellectual. For better or for worse he spoke what he thought was the truth and to hell with everyone else. His rivalries with Wm Buckley, Norman Mailer and Truman Capote were epic and I use that term for their sheer entertainment value. I wouldn't let his persona influence whether you read him or not, Julian is very much worth a read.

 

I remember Mailer really rubbed me the wrong way for similar reasons but I finally broke down and read The Naked and the Dead a couple of years ago. I'm very glad I did.

 

Where did this democratic tradition in the USA truly begin? The ideas and practices that led to the development of the American democratic republic owe a debt to the ancient civilizations of Greece and Rome, the Protestant Reformation, and Gutenberg's printing press. But the Enlightenment of 17th-century Europe had the most immediate impact on the framers of the United States Constitution.

 

I have included this prose-poem below in this thread since the American Declaration of Independence of 1775 owed much to the civilization of Rome.

 

Although I wouldn't want this discussion to degenerate into a right vs left political argument, I find it interesting that many of the modern "conservative" pundits think that these ideas came from the Bible, and that the US government is based primarily on Judeao-Christian principles. I brought this up on a previous thread:

 

http://www.unrv.com/...ding+%2Bfathers

 

And here's a good book that supports the notion of the Greco-Roman world contributing to our form of government:

 

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/0742556247

 

Looks like a fine book on the connections to Greece and Rome. The linkage between Polybius and the framers has been written about quite often throughout our history though I think the average person on the streets here in the U.S. isn't clued in on the connection.

 

To bring it back to topic a book like Julian, aimed at the larger reading public, makes a certain percentage of them reach for a Roman history book, Julian's writings or even a Livy or Polybius. All in all a good thing I think.

---------------------

This thread has developed into an interesting pot-pourri of posts. I think I'll add another piece I wrote on Gore Vidal and his writings in another post on this thread.-Ron

[RonPrice]

THANKS GORE

 

In March 1981 Gore Vidal published his 17th novel: Creation. Of all his novels it was the only one I actually read. Vidal was, and is, an American author, playwright, essayist, screenwriter, and political activist. I

Edited May 22, 2012 by RonPrice

[guy]

Not disagreeing with such issues, but i want to pass on some stimulating views i recently encountered. The u.s. revolution was originally all about preserving rights from the british glorious revolution a century before. Only after being refused standard british citizen rights did the u.s. attempt a modest leapfrog from there.

 

The English Glorious Revolution of 1688 was the important energizing philosophy of the American Revolution.

 

Michael Barone wrote an excellent book on the subject:

 

George Mason

Edited May 22, 2012 by guy

[RonPrice]

This thread has developed an enriching set of directions. I'd like to thank all those who have contributed. I leave it to others to add any comments at this stage. I think I'll do a little reading, before I add anything more. -Ron