Christianity and the Fall of Rome

[Germanicus]

For you tribunician power:-

 

Rise of the Church

[tribunician power]

No offense, but there's already a topic on this a long time ago. Oh, I think it also falls under the category of what brought down the Roman Empire thread, don't know which thread though.

I did not know of this site "a long time ago" and no one addressed this in the other thread so I chose to ask it specifically.

 

 

For you tribunician power:-

 

Rise of the Church

I was actually wanting oppinions of what everyone thought about the fall related to the church not the process of conversion. Thank you none the less.

[Zeke]

Thanks for posting....but I suggest you put this topic in the religious section of our forums just make everything so much more convient.

Welcome friend

 

Ursus throw this topic in Elysium or move it the Temple

Thanks,

 

Zeke

[Ursus]

I have two minds about it.

 

On one hand, Christianity didn't emerge over night. It has its intellectual and spiritual roots early in the Hellenistic world, at least as far back as Plato if not before. If you want to fault Christianity, you should fault some of the people like Plato who laid the groundwork for it (Nietzsche and Rand go into greater depth about this).

 

On the other hand, Christianity as an institution shifted resources of an already fragile empire into a sector of society that was not terribly productive.

 

I'm going to be a moderate about this and say it may have been a factor, but was only one factor among many. Certainly the Byzantine Christians were able to hold together a great empire for a number of years.

[tribunician power]

I have two minds about.

 

On one hand, Christianity didn't emerge over night. It has it's intellectual and spiritual roots early in the Hellenistic world, at least as far back as Plato if not before. If you want to fault Christianity, you should fault some of the people like Plato who laid the groundwork for it (Nietzsche and Rand go into greater depth about this).

 

On the other hand, Christianity as an institution shifted resources of an already fragile empire into a sector of society that was not terribly productive.

 

I'm going to be a moderate about this and say it may have been a factor, but was only one factor among many. Certainly the Byzantine Christians were able to hold together a great empire for a number of years.

I guess that is to say that Christianity when adopted entirely in the empire bent to Roman bloodlust and didn't cause an impact on the state by perhaps slowing the vicious appetite for victory or death and did not cause a change in foreign policy (or interior policy). Or are you saying that any changes it caused happened slowly and were in effect prior to the state sanctioning it as the official religion but in either case Christianity when held to an absolute is not a religion that goes hand and hand with world domination(or maintaining a world already dominated by violence) but then I would imagine we are no different than they in how we bend our beliefs to match our goals even in present time.

[Virgil61]

... such a culture based on self promotion, violence and "peace through victory" could possibly transition into such a strict and entirely opposite religion..."Did Christianity hasten the fall of the empire?"

 

There seems to have been a number of Romans who'd always been attracted to cults and foreign religions-- much to the consternation of traditionalists-- so their adoption of an outside religion doesn't strike me as all that strange. I do think that the troubles of the third and fourth century-- civil war, incursions from barbarians, roving brigands in some areas, high agricultural taxation, plague, etc. probably led much of the population to find consolation in Christianity which can have a somewhat apocalyptic feel as well as that "meek shall inherit the earth" thing which must have been attractive to many.

 

I should add here in the edit that Christianity also made itself more attractive by adopting many pagan and Roman trappings. When you strip away the medieval layer of Catholicism you can still see some of that Roman influence.

 

I've never put much stock in Christianity leading to Rome's downfall because I see it as a symptom not a cause of the decline of Rome.

Edited November 26, 2005 by Virgil61

[Ursus]

I've never put much stock in Christianity leading to Rome's downfall because I see it as a symptom not a cause of the decline of Rome.

 

 

I also like Virgil's answer, too. The last 200 or 300 years of Roman paganism saw a massive shift from the traditional gods of the city-state to Greco-Oriental cults promising Saviors and pleasant afterlives. It was at least in part a response to the insecurities and chaos of the times. The only thing that set Christianity apart from the rest of these Greco-Oriental soteriological cults was its exclusionary monotheism.

 

(mod's note: since variations of this topic occur regularly, I am pinning this thread in the hopes all future discussions of the topic will be directed here).

[Zeke]

The simple fact of the matter is the only reason Christianity dominated was because it offered more of a dogmatic message then the ipsy-dispy belief of the Roman State Cults.

People just want to hear a message, there not content with just sacrificing a cow they want to hear of what happens if we do this and where do we go if we do that.

 

Zeke

Edited November 26, 2005 by Zeke

[tribunician power]

 

I've never put much stock in Christianity leading to Rome's downfall because I see it as a symptom not a cause of the decline of Rome.

 

 

I also like Virgil's answer, too. The last 200 or 300 years of Roman paganism saw a massive shift from the traditional gods of the city-state to Greco-Oriental cults promising Saviors and pleasant afterlives. It was at least in part a response to the insecurities and chaos of the times. The only thing that set Christianity apart from the rest of these Greco-Oriental soteriological cults was its exclusionary monotheism.

 

(mod's note: since variations of this topic occur regularly, I am pinning this thread in the hopes all future discussions of the topic will be directed here).

Good answers! Valid points. Thanks.

[M. Porcius Cato]

The values expressed in Christianity are indeed at odds with the Heroic values of earlier pagan times (eg, Homer). This indeed probably did have an effect on Roman society.

 

However, my problem with this thread is that my studies in philosophy and religion lead me to a blunt conclusion. There isn't anything in Christianity that isn't in a variety of pagan cults and Greek philosophy. Particularly the neoplatonics. The only thing that Christianity did differently is say that their God was the only god and that their way was the only way ( something they inherited from the Hebraic influence). The problem thus is that if some pagan cults and Greek Philosphers were saying things very close to Christianity centuries before Christianity, do we blame Christians for the Fall of Rome?

 

While it's true that one can find strands of Christian beliefs in Stoicism, Neoplatonism, and various pagan cults, the Christians seem to have distilled from all these the very beliefs that were most opposed to the classical Roman culture--they made the love of wealth, sex, power, ambition, and freedom into vices. When you take these qualities out of Rome, should it be surprising you get a poor, depopulated, passive, weak, and servile society?

[Ursus]

Two similar threads on Christianity and the Fall of Rome have been merged (yes, I'm bored).

[Guest Prometheus bringer of Fire]

I found this thread because I have become greatly concerned about the threat of Islam and its

[M. Porcius Cato]

Well said Prometheus.

[Segestan]

Christianity was hardly the cause of Romes Fall. The faith in the Message and Messenger of Jesus Christ was Not due to a clever ploy but rather Life in general for the average human being in 7 BC was very harsh to say the least. War was the expectation of all men. Service to ones Master private or state. The followers of the Messenger of Peace were hung dppied in flammable fuel placed on crosses to burn throughout Rome as Night lights. They dwelt in cold wet catacombs lived like rats just because they wanted the rights of self-determination.Do you really think Rome the largest Empire the World had ever known fell due to persons having faith in all the ideas of human goodness?

Rome fell because the barbarians came from within and from all fronts to wage war on morality.

Islam was founded by a false prophet one who worded a doctrine as a doctrine of war. The wording is powerful to the average human being seeking a sense of righteousness but the result is conquest and war. The Right to plunder and rapine those who do not subscribe to it's doctrine. Islam and Christianity has only one common theme that is they are both subscribed to by the human mind. Fallible and gullable.

The Modern Day issues of Islam are no less dangerous than those of the Crusades. There is No common thread that can bridge the divide between Christ and Mohammad. Christ preached Humanity to Man ,Mohammad was simply compiled the Doctrines of Hebrew , Christianity and added his own brand of Law. Christ did Not write his doctrine of peace on earth others who saw his lifes godlike deeds did. Jesus never went on a campaign of war and conquest Mohammad did.

It is simply an error to place Christianity as was Christ Message with the Doctrine that was Mohammads.

 

regards,

[Pertinax]

Tremendous post Prometheus.