M. Porcius Cato Posted February 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2006 The Phoenician derivation is maybe speculative (but someone may correct me here). The Oxford Latin Dictionary says 'possibly a Punic word' (ie Phoenician as spoken in Carthage) but its only evidence is the kind-of-Punic passage in a Plautus play, which isn't strong evidence. Maybe not strong evidence, but apparently the best we have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Dalby Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 The Phoenician derivation is maybe speculative (but someone may correct me here). The Oxford Latin Dictionary says 'possibly a Punic word' (ie Phoenician as spoken in Carthage) but its only evidence is the kind-of-Punic passage in a Plautus play, which isn't strong evidence. Maybe not strong evidence, but apparently the best we have? Oh, yes, agreed. The etymology of Latin often goes ahead on much weaker evidence than that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 (edited) I finally acquired an affordable personal copy the book I recommended to Cato on the first page. Now that I have read more and more treatments of the subject of Carthage, I still think this one of the best out there. There is something about Picard's writing or perhaps its owed to the english translation (book was originally written in French) but it's a flowing read packed with excellent references and priceless information. As the book is closing in on 50 years old, the only thing it lacks for the modern reader is up to date archaeological data, the most important of which is that the actual Pre-Roman, Punic city center has finally been positively identified at the base of Byrsa (aka St. Louis Hill) but all the other important stuff like the harbors & the Tophet are all present in his treatment. So, I'll plug it again, if you find yourself looking for quality reference material on Carthage, this book should not be left out of your bibliography. Edited May 31, 2006 by Pantagathus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted June 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 The Picard text is the only one I own on Carthage, so I don't have that much to compare it too, but I found myself sort of disappointed overall by how little is really known. So if anyone has a modern archaeological work on Carthage that they'd like to recommend, please post here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 I found myself sort of disappointed overall by how little is really known. That's just the probelm Cato, not much more is known. The Phoenicians and the West : Politics, Colonies and Trade has more up to date info on archaeological data but the translation from Spanish leaves much to be desired as does Maria Eugenia Aubet's treatment of subjects outside her scope as an archaeologist (i.e. she's not a good historical compiler) I'm probably going to give Carthage: Uncovering the Mysteries and Splendor of Ancient Tunisia a shot but don't expect any revelations Better bet is probably Carthage: A History by the Frenchman Serge Lancel which is currently on the way to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 (edited) DING DING DING And the winner is: Carthage: A History by the Frenchman Serge Lancel Holy cow what a resource! Very hard to find a latest edition Blackwell Press ('97 or '99 I think), especially at a good price but this baby is chock full of stuff: Old pictures from tomb openings, extensive pictures of artifacts (more than all others I've seen combined), coins, maps, tomb murals, figurines, masks, great treatments of all subject matter, etc, etc, etc... I can't wait to dig into this one. :wub: Edited June 8, 2006 by Pantagathus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rameses the Great Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Can someone answer this question? How in the heck is Carthage related to the Phoenecians. If Phoenecia would be modern day Lebanon how did they find their way to Carthage, and make their home there? Were their people living there and just came under Phoenecian rule? Or was it uninhabited and just easily proclaimed a Phoenecian province. Is that why they were so good at sea? I find it hard to believe that modern day Algeria and Tunisia is somehow linked to Lebanon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted June 10, 2006 Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 Rameses, The short answer is that Carthage was a colony of Tyre (Lebanon) & Kition (Cyprus). The Phoenicians had a string of outposts throughout the Med & along the sailing route to & from Spain. As Assyria started to pressure Phoenicia, there was a diaspora of Phoenicians westward and so in the 9th Century, places like Gadir, Lixus, Utica and then Carthage, Nora, etc... were founded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal the Great Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 (edited) Intresting Fact: The Carthaginans also Circumvented Africa, may have placed furthur colonies there and there are rumors they may have even reached the Americas. Go here For more info Edited July 6, 2006 by Hannibal the Great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Dalby Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 Intresting Fact: The Carthaginans also Circumvented Africa, may have placed furthur colonies there and there are rumors they may have even reached the Americas. Go here For more info If they did reach the Americas, they obviously took one look and decided 'The less said about this the better'. Columbus, by contrast, couldn't keep his mouth shut. For better or worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 (edited) Intresting Fact: The Carthaginans also Circumvented Africa, may have placed furthur colonies there and there are rumors they may have even reached the Americas. Go here For more info If they did reach the Americas, they obviously took one look and decided 'The less said about this the better'. Columbus, by contrast, couldn't keep his mouth shut. For better or worse. Actually, it was the Phoenicians (proper) that circumnavigated Africa for Pharaoh Necho. You are perhaps thinking of Hanno's voyage which was down the west African coast. Andrew, according to Diodorus (Book V, 19 & 20) you are quite right... Consequently the Tyrrhenians, at the time when they were masters of the sea, purposed to dispatch a colony to it; but the Carthaginians prevented their doing so, partly out of concern lest many inhabitants of Carthage should remove there because of the excellence of the island and partly in order to have ready in it a place in which to seek refuge against an incalculable turn of fortune, in case some total disaster should overtake Carthage. For it was their thought that, since they were masters of the sea, they would thus be able to move, households and all, to an island which was unknown to their conquerors. Book V-20 Edited July 6, 2006 by Pantagathus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rameses the Great Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 (edited) I have heard about the Carthaginians reaching America before. Just a few questions I'd like answered here: 1. Did they make a colony, or was their stay too short? 2. Did they run into trouble with the natives as the Vikings did? 3. Did they propose trade to help boost their economy, and trick the Indians? 4. Where did they land during their expeditions? Thank you...if answerable Edited July 6, 2006 by Rameses the Great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted July 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 I have heard about the Carthaginians reaching Africa before. What are you talking about? Carthage was IN Africa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rameses the Great Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 Apologies, I meant America. Made the correction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal the Great Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 I have heard about the Carthaginians reaching America before. Just a few questions I'd like answered here: 1. Did they make a colony, or was their stay too short? 2. Did they run into trouble with the natives as the Vikings did? 3. Did they propose trade to help boost their economy, and trick the Indians? 4. Where did they land during their expeditions? Thank you...if answerable 1. It is unknown whether or not they made colonies 2.see # one 3. Yes they did propose trade and it is believed they trader with their own coins and received tobacco and other plants in return(Egyptian Pharohs have been discovered with tobacco in their mummified mouths and since the Egyptians were not excellent mariners it is believed this was gotten for them by the Phonecians or Carthaginians) 4. Carthaginan coins and structures have been found in the Ohio river valley and wreaks of their ships have been found off of the U.S east coast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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