Discarding Unwanted Children

[Andrew Dalby]

The attitude toward slaves did evolve toward a more humane one. I don't think christianity caused that - early christians kept slaves too.

 

Christians were, perhaps, sometimes more concerned about slaves than others were. I seem to remember a Roman Christian author saying you should only buy a slave 'to save his soul'. But does this mean to set him free, or to convert him to Christianity while keeping him as a slave? I don't know. Can anyone confirm or correct this?

[Skarr]

Romans did not tolerate the pirates as they not only looted merchant ships but also threatened the regular shipments of grain which the citizens of Rome had come to expect like clockwork, particularly with the expanding population and the dependence of masses of people on the handout of free bread.

 

Food riots in Rome due to lack of bread were a major concern of the senators and they would do anything to avoid any uncertainty, particularly where it concerned their precious grain shipments. The island of Sicily was a grain basket and also home to many pirates as well as Roman rebels, who often found this a safe haven and a way of attacking Rome, by threatening its valuable food resources. Pompey's son Sextus was very successful in holding Rome to ransom and frequently had the help of pirates (who provided their ships) to ward off attacks from Antony or Octavian's fleets after Caesar's death. I think it was the clever Agrippa who eventually got rid of him. Octavian hated the sea and was always fearful of being shipwrecked.

 

The pirates were always a thorn in Rome's flesh and could never be eradicated completely, despite successful claims made by Pompey and others who were given special powers and money to fight them.

 

I think the worst record was that of Antony's father, Creticus, who suffered a massive defeat.

[sullafelix]

 

It was the large number of rural slaves that drove the population of Rome higher than it might have because smaller plebian farms couldn't compete with the big slave-estates.

 

This is a bit of a bone of contention at the moment. There are two schools of thought one says that the slave run estates took over the countryside, the other (which is archaeologically driven) says that the evidence supports the survuval of subsistence level farming to an large degree.

 

Its a fascinating area at the moment (my area of research so I would say that!) lots going on and many a good argument to be had!

 

Personally I think that there is a lot more to be discovered but I suspect that we may have been looking at it in the wrong way!

 

[Gaius Octavius]

I thought that the practice of 'exposure' was, originally, for the purpose of getting rid of malformed children rather than killing them. But, the story of Romulus and Remus flies in my face.

As regards slavery and its economics, it has been shown, at least in America, that it was more expensive to feed, clothe and house slaves than to hire 'free' labor.

Edited March 26, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[Kosmo]

Slavery was always bringing good profits. In one book the authors say abouts slavery in US that it what half the price to use a slave compared to hire a free man.

Some jobs no free person will ever take, so they needed to force people in this jobs.

And there was no real labour market in traditional societies, so no alternative to slavery.

[Gaius Octavius]

Slavery was always bringing good profits. In one book the authors say abouts slavery in US that it what half the price to use a slave compared to hire a free man.

Some jobs no free person will ever take, so they needed to force people in this jobs.

And there was no real labour market in traditional societies, so no alternative to slavery.

 

I don't wish to be obstinate and do admit that I can be wrong. Yet, keep in mind that one must purchase, feed, clothe and care for slaves. All these prices vary. One loses these costs with 'free' labor and gains a wage cost. This cost (for these menial jobs) has always been sufficient only to keep body and soul together. Very few freed slaves beame state ministers or capitalists. Raise the wage and PERHAPS free men will do the job.

Profit or loss is not dependent on slavery or free labor. Many slave owners in the USA went bankrupt.

Edited March 27, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[idahojeri]

I'm not sure if Christianity had much to do with it. Christianity once seriously debated whether or not grown women had souls. Whether or not a newborn or a fetus had a soul is something I don't think they worried about until later.

 

Ever since the age of Augustus, social conservatives worried about the declining Roman birth rate. Perhaps the answers lie there, in the general willingness of the government to have more Romans born into the world to be soldiers, farmers and tax payers.

 

 

Jewish laws from the time of Moses forbade abortion and infanticide. The only exception to an absolute ban on abortion was to spare the life of the mother. Of all the cultures in the ancient world, only the Jews insisted on trying to raise every child that was born. The Christians, from the very beginning, followed the same practice. They also forbade contraception, and believed that sex outside of marriage was sinful. These practices would over time produce an ever growing Christian population.

 

I believe you are incorrect about Christians ever debating whether or not women and souls. Would you mind supplying more information about this?

[Pertinax]

I have posted a blog entry and a comment regarding abortion as part of my notes relating to meeting a moderm midwife who is a re-enactor Roman midwife

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?automo...p;showentry=425

 

The photo link to the specialised equipment may not be for the faint hearted, but it is an acurrate and faithful attempt at re-creating an historical surgical tool.

[idahojeri]

I have posted a blog entry and a comment regarding abortion as part of my notes relating to meeting a moderm midwife who is a re-enactor Roman midwife

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?automo...p;showentry=425

 

The photo link to the specialised equipment may not be for the faint hearted, but it is an acurrate and faithful attempt at re-creating an historical surgical tool.

 

 

Incredible picture. Wonder if this is the equipment Tertullian wrote about in 203 "a flexible frame for opening the uterus...futher furnished with an anular blade..its last appendage being a blunted or covered hook, wherewith the entire fetus is extracted by a violent delivery. There is also a copper needle or spike by which the actual death is managed." (A Treastise on the Sout, 25)

 

Anyone know of any studies about abortion and the death of Roman women? Rodney Stark mentions that abortion was a leading cause of death, which I believe he bases upon an essay? book? by Gorman.

 

Blessings, Jeri

[Pertinax]

I have posted a blog entry and a comment regarding abortion as part of my notes relating to meeting a moderm midwife who is a re-enactor Roman midwife

 

http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?automo...p;showentry=425

 

The photo link to the specialised equipment may not be for the faint hearted, but it is an acurrate and faithful attempt at re-creating an historical surgical tool.

 

 

Incredible picture. Wonder if this is the equipment Tertullian wrote about in 203 "a flexible frame for opening the uterus...futher furnished with an anular blade..its last appendage being a blunted or covered hook, wherewith the entire fetus is extracted by a violent delivery. There is also a copper needle or spike by which the actual death is managed." (A Treastise on the Sout, 25)

 

Anyone know of any studies about abortion and the death of Roman women? Rodney Stark mentions that abortion was a leading cause of death, which I believe he bases upon an essay? book? by Gorman.

 

Blessings, Jeri

 

I have established initial links with LEG II AVG , the Midwife and I feel we might be able to collaborate on the admixture, use and storage of medications/applications especially in relation to obstetrics and combat trauma wounds, this would meantime allow me to gain a fuller knowledge of the contemporary surgical instruments. This lady has a very wide range of actual recovered instruments, re-created items and quite a few for which the provenance is undecided. So I hope I can furnish more information in due course.

Certainly the instruments shown here are AD 1-180 in time frame.

The Roman "birthing chair" which was on display is ,save as to materials, on sale again as a "modern innovation" in obstetrics. AS I have mentioned in the blog , her opinion as to birth control was that infanticide was the predominant method, but I will find out more before making such a generalisation, certainly the attitude to contraception and conception appears to have been laissez faire.In the meantime if members have more information on this topic I would be glad to know of it.

[M. Porcius Cato]

How did the re-creation of the birthing chair compare to this image of one from the 2nd C. CE?

[Skarr]

The Roman practice of exposing children was certainly a right but I think it was not as widely practised as people would have us believe. Many of the "exposed" were certainly rescued or adopted by others, especially by those desirous of children or wishing to adopt one. There was, of course, a bias towards girls, due to the financial implications, as most families were required to provide a dowry if they wanted a good match for the girl. Deformed children were also often exposed, as well those children that were born out of wedlock, while the husband was away on long military campaigns lasting several years at a time.

 

With regard to the Christian views on this, I think we have a split in the early Church between those who strictly followed the tenets of Judaism, which was always against any form of abortion or infanticide to those who leaned towards the Aristotlean view. The Greek philosopher believed that the fetus became 'animated' or imbued with the spirit of a human soul only later in its development and that abortion before that period, ranging from 40 days to 90 days, was acceptable. It was believed that the fetus was originally possessed by a vegetable soul, then animal and then, finally human. After this point, when the human soul possessed the fetus, abortion would be a crime and tantamount to murder.

Edited July 18, 2006 by Skarr

[Pertinax]

How did the re-creation of the birthing chair compare to this image of one from the 2nd C. CE?

 

Almost identical, as is the modern plastic one.

 

The Roman practice of exposing children was certainly a right but I think it was not as widely practised as people would have us believe. Many of the "exposed" were certainly rescued or adopted by others, especially by those desirous of children or wishing to adopt one. There was, of course, a bias towards girls, due to the financial implications, as most families were required to provide a dowry if they wanted a good match for the girl. Deformed children were also often exposed, as well those children that were born out of wedlock, while the husband was away on long military campaigns lasting several years at a time.

 

With regard to the Christian views on this, I think we have a split in the early Church between those who strictly followed the tenets of Judaism, which was always against any form of abortion or infanticide to those who leaned towards the Aristotlean view. The Greek philosopher believed that the fetus became 'animated' or imbued with the spirit of a human soul only later in its development and that abortion before that period, ranging from 40 days to 90 days, was acceptable. It was believed that the fetus was originally possessed by a vegetable soul, then animal and then, finally human. After this point, when the human soul possessed the fetus, abortion would be a crime and tantamount to murder.

 

This is all very pertinent, and I would add as well that death during childbirth and infant mortality must be considered . My initial reaction after speaking to Carole ( the Midwife) is that midwifery was (at least by the first C AD) a considered art with not unreasonable hygeine standards-germ theory was unknown -but midwives were exhorted to be clean and have nimble fingers with short nails. The next question is who would be able to get good midwifery care and at what price?