Gaius Octavius Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 I finally got around to tasting red Falerno. To my dis-educated palate it tasted like my idea of weasel you know what. I understand that the original vines were mostly destroyed in the 19th century by phylloxera but have since been recovered. Is it known if this is the same bilge that the Romans drank? Has it been compared, scientifically, to a sample of the stuff found at a dig or in the bilges of an ancient ship? Did the Romans 'cut' the stuff as French peasants lately did? Maybe I'll give the white stuff a try. Was the Roman wine red or white or both? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 I finally got around to tasting red Falerno. To my dis-educated palate it tasted like my idea of weasel you know what. I understand that the original vines were mostly destroyed in the 19th century by phylloxera but have since been recovered. Is it known if this is the same bilge that the Romans drank? Has it been compared, scientifically, to a sample of the stuff found at a dig or in the bilges of an ancient ship? Did the Romans 'cut' the stuff as French peasants lately did? Strangely enough it sure is praised by the ancients as the best of wines. I've not tried it, despite being a regular wine drinker so I can't comment on that part of it. Maybe I'll give the white stuff a try. Was the Roman wine red or white or both? Here's a simple list of ancient wines compiled mainly from Pliny, but I'm willing to bet that our Mr. Dalby can shed a bit more light on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted March 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 Thanks Primus Pilus! This site is a platinum mine! Mr. Dalby's chart will soon make its way around the world. I hope he will 'shed' a little more light on the matter. It's going to cost me a fortune now, as I give the stuff to my quacks. I would probably go for the Muslum as I prefer a burgandy imported from Naples, NEW YORK at 9 bucks a gallon or Lambrusco or Barberone. If any try Grappa, don't chug-a-lug it! I really think that the stuff is made from old toe nails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 (edited) If you get a copy of "Empire of Pleasures" by AD you will find comprehensive information Grappa is my espresso additive of choice. Edited March 26, 2006 by Pertinax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 Thanks Primus Pilus! This site is a platinum mine! Mr. Dalby's chart will soon make its way around the world. I hope he will 'shed' a little more light on the matter. It's going to cost me a fortune now, as I give the stuff to my quacks. I would probably go for the Muslum as I prefer a burgandy imported from Naples, NEW YORK at 9 bucks a gallon or Lambrusco or Barberone.If any try Grappa, don't chug-a-lug it! I really think that the stuff is made from old toe nails. Oops, I didn't mean to be confusing, the chart is actually something I compiled. I just meant that Andrew Dalby and his related books (as Pertinax suggested) can probably provide better detail than I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 You are too modest PP , that is an excellent list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted March 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) Oops, I didn't mean to be confusing, the chart is actually something I compiled. I just meant that Andrew Dalby and his related books (as Pertinax suggested) can probably provide better detail than I. ______________________________________________________________________________________ It's a great chart. Congratulations, Primus Pilus. I'm going to drive the local wine vendors nuts and myself into bankruptcy. I'll have to spell Mulsum properly in my quest. Edited March 27, 2006 by Gaius Octavius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Dalby Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) That's a really excellent list, PP, I agree. I might have one or two additions for you, though ... Do you want me to send them in any particular format? Or is there maybe a way I can add to the list directly? Edited March 27, 2006 by Andrew Dalby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Dalby Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 As to Falernian, Galen (imperial physician to Commodus I think, anyway quite a celebrity in 2nd century Rome, and no mean wine-taster himself), doubted that all the Falernian washing about in the Empire could possibly be genuine. Galen was, I think, the last person to report tasting Caecuban (which had, as someone said earlier, ceased to be made in Nero's time). He said it was 'too old'. That's life ... Oh, and another 'last taste'. The last banquet at which it's reported that wine of the Opimian vintage (121 BC) was served, was one at which Caligula was a guest, in AD 39. He went mad shortly afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) Maybe all the Falernian need that you tasted Gaius was to be aged in a pitch coated amphorae and to have pitch resin also added to the must... Also, I believe honey was a typical additive to Falernian to make it more palatable. Oh, and another 'last taste'. The last banquet at which it's reported that wine of the Opimian vintage (121 BC) was served, was one at which Caligula was a guest, in AD 39. He went mad shortly afterwards. I thought Pliny said there was still some Vinum Opimianum in existence in his day? Consistancy of goo... Edited March 27, 2006 by Pantagathus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Dalby Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Oh, and another 'last taste'. The last banquet at which it's reported that wine of the Opimian vintage (121 BC) was served, was one at which Caligula was a guest, in AD 39. He went mad shortly afterwards. I thought Pliny said there was still some Vinum Opimianum in existence in his day? Consistancy of goo... I'm glad you said that, Pantagathus! You're quite right, but Pliny added that, in his day, the remaining supplies of Opimian were no longer used for drinking. It was used in small quantities for doctoring other wines, to give them 'age' I suppose. Not a very honest practice ... 'Opimian' is also served at the feast of Trimalchio, but that, of course, is fiction. I have a question for avid readers of Pliny on wine. Here's a quotation from Norman Douglas, /Old Calabria/, 1915. He is sitting at a restaurant at Cotrone in Calabria, watching the world go by, and says: "This wine of Cir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) Andrew, The closest I can reckon is: "The regions of Italy that are at a greater distance from the Ausonian Sea, are not without their wines of note, such as those of Tarentum, Servitia, and Consentia, and those, again, of Tempsa, Babia, and Lucania, among which the wines of Thurii hold the pre-eminence. But the most celebrated of all of them, owing to the fact that Messala used to drink it, and was indebted to it for his excellent health, was the wine of Lagara, which was grown not far from Grumentum" - Pliny 14.8 I know Thurii was supposed to have been north of Crotona but at least we're still in Bruttium; and Lagara is reckoned to have been close to Thurii even though Grumentum was in Lucania... It seems to me that Thurii & Crotona were pretty intertwined so just because the wine is said to have come from Thurii doesn't have to mean that the estate(s) it was grown on wasn't situated along the Neaethus. Like I said, that's my best guess! Edited March 27, 2006 by Pantagathus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primus Pilus Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 I have a question for avid readers of Pliny on wine. Here's a quotation from Norman Douglas, /Old Calabria/, 1915. He is sitting at a restaurant at Cotrone in Calabria, watching the world go by, and says: "This wine of Cir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 The Duca Reserve is much better though, but I still prefer more northern Italian as well as Spanish wines myself An aside from the topic at hand because I agree with P-P especially about Spanish wines, there was an article recently in Food & Wine magazine about the effects of global warming trends on wine production. I shuddered to learn that if current trends continue, Spanish & Portuguese varieties will go the way of the dodo within 20 years because the peninsula will become to hot to support viniculture... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted March 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) Maybe all the Falernian need that you tasted Gaius was to be aged in a pitch coated amphorae and to have pitch resin also added to the must... Also, I believe honey was a typical additive to Falernian to make it more palatable. ________________________________________________________________________________________ If I age it in an amphora lined with pitch, I'll be long dead before I could tase it. The creasote is out anyway. I'll give the honey bit a go, but then what is the point? Could do that with the stuff imported from Naples, NY. I have a relative, in Campagnia, who makes wine for diabetics(!). Swill doesn't taste bad. Maybe its Falerno. Edited March 27, 2006 by Gaius Octavius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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