Alexander At Gedrosia

[Andrew Dalby]

good point i havent really read much into herodotus or hes histories.... lol oh well tho was jsut making a point lol

 

That's ok Honorius that is a more than regular reaction to assume that the person would be biased to his own country. The Greeks, were a bit more unbiased that is why we get accurate information from them. The Egyptians for example would do anything to make the pharaoh look good, and were one sided. On the other hand the Greeks tried to base it off of historical information.

 

Greeks were biased to their country, like every other person. The thing is they are not overly biased and do a good job of getting the true story across.

 

Let me butt in here. Many ancient Greeks were biased in favour of their own culture. Many other people are too. But we have to look at people as individuals (otherwise, we are no better than those we criticise for bias!)

 

Now, if you look at Herodotus as an individual, and read what he says, you'll see that one of his main aims was to teach a different viewpoint to his Greek readers. He goes out of his way to show that other people's views (Egyptians, Persians, Lydians etc.) were sensible in their own terms, and sometimes more logical than common Greek views. He really fought against ethnic bias. Since he wrote Greek, that meant he fought against Greek-centred bias. Read him and you'll see! And pick up a good translation, like the Penguin for example, and you won't be able to put it down ...

[Pantagathus]

I couldn't have said it better (& didn't) myself Andrew. I completely agree.

 

Interesting enough, Herodotus wasn't really *that* Greek himself, apparently his father had a Greek transliterated Carian name...

Edited June 1, 2006 by Pantagathus

[Andrew Dalby]

I couldn't have said it better (& didn't) myself Andrew. I completely agree.

 

Interesting enough, Herodotus wasn't really *that* Greek himself, apparently his father had a Greek transliterated Carian name...

 

I never realised that! And what a writer of Greek!

 

A surprising number of Latin authors, including some of the most fluent writers, have a multilingual background: Plautus, Terence, Apuleius, Ausonius, Augustine ...

[Gaius Octavius]

He is an easy read. If only his observations about the one eyed people up north were so.

[Andrew Dalby]

He is an easy read. If only his observations about the one eyed people up north were so.

 

They may be around there somewhere ...

[philalexandros]

Alexander was a genius and an inspiration to men.

He is over villified in today's society and deserves to have much more credit than he gets. Alexander had a vision and was determined to follow it through. He loved his men and army as much as they loved him. He didn't return Porus to his kingdom because he lost the battle, that's rather bizzare as a matter of fact. He returned him because he had a deep respect toward others, especially the ruling monarchs and to those of you who actually have read into the history of Alexander, this would have been made evident everywhere.

Such as the incident at Issus when Darius fled and left his family there, including some of his daughters and his mother, Alexander had such respect for them he never harmed them nor threatened them in any manner. Alexander was an hounourable man.

Not only did he return Porus on his throne but he gave him more territory to govern than he previously had.

 

How about the time when some of Alexander's troops found a little water while they were on their march with all men suffering from hunger and thirst, and they gave a helmet full to him, Alexander tipped it on the ground in front of his men and declared he won't drink until his men do. Alexander was willing to share everyhardship with them.

 

And of course he wanted to excel others in history, that made him a extraordinary person with motivation and drive.

 

I'll leave this with a quote from Alexander on his deathbed, this shows alot about the extradorinary person he is.

 

"After my death will you find a king who deserves such men?"

[Krackalackin]

Rameses what battle was this?? if your talking about Gaugamela i think that was a bit exagerated with the numbers...the greeks tended to do that alot eg. Herodotus...

 

alot of people io know actually believe Alexander lost against Porus as he returned the land to Porus who ruled under Alexander.... i think thats a valid theory but yeah the ones who believe in that are persian fanatic people i call friends

 

This is a good time to discuss battle numbers since you brought it up. I've read a lot of accounts and I disagree with a lot of them. Personally, I think Alexander had no more than twenty thousand Infantry and four thousand cavalry when he entered Asia. People confuse his army with his sentry positions and garrisons. He left with only half of his army. At the battle of Issus, I think he had close to forty Thousand Troops and Darius had 120,000. Finally at the battle of Gaugamela, I believe Darius had 250,000 troops and Alexander maybe swelled his ranks to fifty. I don't think Darius could have had any more troops than that. It's just simply not possible logistically. The largest army you could possibly concieve to field at this time with all the advantages included to ensure its travel is a quarter a million. But it's amazing what you find in different sources. I have this one book written by some Indian CEO who thinks he's a historian that reads Darius' Army was actually smaller at Gaugamela! I could not believe that. What rubbish. But these are my figures anyhow.

Edited September 30, 2006 by Krackalackin

[Divi Filius]

According to Peter Greens account, Darius probably had no more the about 100,000, highest estimate could be maybe 120,000. Of those that actually took part in the battle it could probably be as low as half before the route occured. Fuller gives us no actual details other than that its cavalry "it must have surpassed that of Alexander".

 

I would personally say his army could have been about 80,000-100,000 infantry and about 30,000 cavalry.

 

He is over villified in today's society and deserves to have much more credit than he gets. Alexander had a vision and was determined to follow it through.

 

Alexander's image has always changed. In the time right after his death to the time of the Roman empire, largely due to the constant threat of Macedon to the Greek cities, Alexander was pretty much looked down upon as a man who overthrew freedom.

 

That "vision" which you speak of is a creation of the Pax Romana historians and their interpretation of the conquest. The peace and prosperity in the time of the main sources which we have today of Alexander(Plutarch, Arrian, Rufus) deeply influenced their view on the conquests of Alexander. They themselves lived a world which they considered the ideal(one where Hellenic learning was dominant and Rome brought Greek culture to the farthest regions of the world).

 

That view is no more distorted then the modern Post-WW2 vision of "men of action".

 

One can argue it was a supremist and ethnocentrist view in itself. Why does the world need Hellenization and Hellenic learning? isnt it a massive degradation of native Persian culture which led about this mentality?

 

On top of that there is little evidence that Alexander actually had any interest in some dual Persian-Greek world as much as any Greek or Persian had in it. At times he would imbue both cultures by mixing customes, something which insulted both Greeks and Persians.

 

He loved his men and army as much as they loved him.

 

Alexander loved his soldiers so as long as they were obedient. Historians argue that the Gedrosia disaster was actually one which Alexander was aware of but did so as to punish the men who forced him to forfeit his conquests.

Add this to the fact that he himself had long been recruiting native Persians which was planing to raise for a next invasion. He had for a long time been killing off his commanders and replacing them with more obedient and opportunist Persians who did not have the belligerant tone which the Greeks commanders had, something which was especially necessary for a man who was becoming increasigly despotical.

 

He didn't return Porus to his kingdom because he lost the battle, that's rather bizzare as a matter of fact.

 

He returned Porus to his kingdom because he did not have anymore administrators that he could pick out from his own list of commanders. He couldnt spare anymore. So he was content with giving Porus the rule in the land. In the end Porus even gained through it all since he received more land then he had before, another example that shows how precarious Alexander's position actually was. In many ways he had overstretched himself and thus began to compromise with the local rulers which he conquered. Porus was one along the many other Persian satraps which he kept in place.

 

Such as the incident at Issus when Darius fled and left his family there, including some of his daughters and his mother, Alexander had such respect for them he never harmed them nor threatened them in any manner.

 

The Persians had deep reverence toward the Queen and viewed her to the position of a Goddess(Mother-Goddess). Through her Alexander could solidify and validate his rule over the Persian Empire. She pretty much dissappears when Alexander realizes that Persians will not accept him as ruler no matter what he does, I dont remember but I think she eventually kills herself or dies naturally... I forgot.

 

To have killed her would be more insulting then to have killed the Shahansha himself.

Edited September 30, 2006 by Divi Filius

[Divi Filius]

Herodotus wasn't really *that* Greek himself, apparently his father had a Greek transliterated Carian name...

 

Herodotus hailed from Halicarnasus yes, which was a city heavily populated with native Carians but also a large population of Greeks and(according to Olmsteads "History of the Persian Empire") the city had already started it's steady process of hellenization by that point.

 

I havnt heard of any traceable Carian ethnicity in Herodotus though, however I would assume in a majority Carian city he would have some Carian blood.