Greek/macedonian Influence In The Middle East

[Andrew Dalby]

Robin Lane Fox, wasn't the Historical consultant for Oliver Stone's 'Alexander' (yawn)?

 

Language is really important in this context. Let me just give my take on this in case it's useful.

 

First, although (I think) ancient Macedonians were not Greeks (but related), the ancient Macedonian language had no importance after Alexander's initial expedition. In those first years, some of his troops spoke Macedonian, but, even in the army, Greek totally supplanted ancient Macedonian as language of communication. The Macedonian court was thoroughly Hellenized by Phil's time (Alex's dad), and at court only Greek was spoken.

 

[Note I am carefully saying 'ancient Macedonian' because, as someone else said above, modern Macedonian is a Slavic language not connected with the ancient one.]

 

Now, what happened after. On one side of the argument: because of Alexander's conquests, Greek became the language of government, power, education, high-class culture, all across the Near and Middle East. That is why Greek became the second language of the Roman Empire, and eventually the only major language of the Byzantine Empire. That is also why the New Testament was written in Greek; and why all the great works that came out of the library and 'museum' at Alexandria are in Greek. A large proportion of later Greek literature, in fact, wouldn't be in Greek if it hadn't been for Alexander! He had a huge influence.

 

On the other side: compare the Western and Eastern Roman Empires. In the West, Latin eventually supplanted all the local languages except in remote and mountainous regions (the Basque country, Wales, Albania ...). In the East, even though Greek had a chance to do this for much longer, it didn't do it. Greek hasn't eventually become the language of Syria and Egypt, in the same way that Latin HAS become the language of Spain and France. Why not? Partly because those eastern regions had better-established languages of written culture already (Aramaic-Syriac, Coptic); partly because Greek didn't penetrate mass culture in the East quite as much as Latin did in the West. You could say also because of later history and the Islamic conquest: but no, that isn't it really, because Coptic and Aramaic actually did survive the conquest, and continued to be used by minorities; Greek (in those eastern regions) didn't.

 

I tried to work all this out in /Language in Danger/, and I think I still agree with myself! This is a quick summary.

[historyfanatic]

I can definately respect your opinions on the subject. I in the otherhand definately believe with no doubt that Ancient Macedonians were and still are Greek. If its alright I would like to post some sources with texts on here that I have found.

 

The Great British Historian Nicholas Hammond wrote in his book The Genius of Alexander the Great:

[Rameses the Great]

First, although (I think) ancient Macedonians were not Greeks (but related), the ancient Macedonian language had no importance after Alexander's initial expedition. In those first years, some of his troops spoke Macedonian, but, even in the army, Greek totally supplanted ancient Macedonian as language of communication. The Macedonian court was thoroughly Hellenized by Phil's time (Alex's dad), and at court only Greek was spoken.

 

I think you and I are on the same page Mr. Dalby. Initially I do not think that Macedonians were Greeks. If there is an expert on genetics can someone help to shed some light on this.

 

Rameses needs to know!

[Andrew Dalby]

... Ancient historians are by far the best proof on any kind of history... Thanks

 

I quite accept that opinions can vary on this issue. The reason I don't go along with those who say 'ancient Macedonians were Greeks' is that the (very limited) examples of words in the ancient Macedonian language don't look like Greek. But this is certainly not conclusive. They might be cited exactly because these particular words differed from Greek, while most other words were just like Greek. I guess that is one of the arguments that Hammond may have used (I haven't read him on this particular subject).

 

What is certain is that the language spoken and spread by Alexander and his successors was, purely, Greek.

[Philhellene]

Grant says that the Hellenes, unlike the Romans, were not interested in spreading their culture among the natives and actually practiced a kind of separatism. Neither Alexander nor his successors in the area were acting as agents of Hellenism - they merely wanted glory, conquest and riches.

 

 

We know that at least one Seleucid king Antiochus IV practiced the policy of

Edited February 2, 2007 by Philhellene

[caldrail]

Regarding the kushan coinage, would it be more likely to assume that because greek ships were regularly trading in the area from the 2nd century ad onward that bilingual coinage had practicakl value rather than any indication of greek-speaking people in a part of the world only reached previously by alexanders army, most of whom were homesick and wanted an end to the great mans campaigning?

[Julius Ratus]

:mummy: -- "I think you and I are on the same page Mr. Dalby. Initially I do not think that Macedonians were Greeks. If there is an expert on genetics can someone help to shed some light on this.

 

Rameses needs to know! "

 

I don't know if this can be prooved. Successive waves of Italians (Ancient Romans etc. and Medieval Venitians), Goths, Slavs, and Turkic folks (Ottomans and Bulgars) have permanently changed the genetic make up of modern Greeks/Macedonians.

 

That said, I don't know what the truth is, whether Ancient Greeks were genetically/racially/ethnicly the same as the Ancient Macedonians or vice-versa. What I can say for certain is the the Ancient Greeks didn't consider Macedonians, Epirots, etc. to be Hellenes.

 

 

Back to the subject, I think that the example of the Jews points to heavy Hellenistic influence in the Middle East. Heck, Flavius Josephus wrote in Greek. Even in Christian times Greek culture remained important (though I am sure the Byzantines has a lot to do with it). The Gospels and Epistles were written in Greek. The old Jewish scriptures were translated into Greek by the Alexandrines (the Septuegint). Not to mention, the Arabs had access to Aristotle after the rise of Islam.

[Kosmo]

Regarding the kushan coinage, would it be more likely to assume that because greek ships were regularly trading in the area from the 2nd century ad onward that bilingual coinage had practicakl value rather than any indication of greek-speaking people in a part of the world only reached previously by alexanders army, most of whom were homesick and wanted an end to the great mans campaigning?

 

I think it's much more then that. The kushan kings called themselves "philellenes" not for some traders, but in the continuation of a political custom of the greek kings of Bactria. I think hellenism survived in the East much longer then usually told by books in both Parthia and the Kushan empire.

[Rameses the Great]

Could it have been possible that Greeks considered you Greek, if you were like them instead of the same ethnicity? I recall a quote from a Greek philosopher:

 

Being Greek is not so much an ethnic stock, rather a way of thinking.

 

--Anonymous

 

So, would not the Macedonians fit in that realm?

[Julius Ratus]

Could it have been possible that Greeks considered you Greek, if you were like them instead of the same ethnicity? I recall a quote from a Greek philosopher:

 

Being Greek is not so much an ethnic stock, rather a way of thinking.

 

--Anonymous

 

So, would not the Macedonians fit in that realm?

 

 

According to Herodotus there were five things that made one Greek. If only I could remember them all.

 

Living in a Polis

Speaking Greek

Worshiping the Greek gods

Having "Greek blood"

and something else.

 

These were questions on an exam a year ago. It all boils down to, what are you looking for in an answer. If you are basing your assessment of "Greekness" on cultural identity then the question may be easily answered. If you are looking for racial "Greekness" you may be unable to find it.

 

Genetics, especially with ancient cultures gets very convoluted. Remember, Himmler allowed Bosniaks (Moslem Turks) into the SS because they were "of ancient Gothic stock" (and Germany was short on manpower ). Any question of racial/genetic identity is bound to have problems because the question of races can never be defined in white and black terms. The whole idea of "race" dosen't work very well, anthropologically speaking, because there are to many varients in anthropoid phisiology, and they don't classify very well.

 

Back to the original tangent, I do not think that genetics can be used to seperate Greeks from Macedonians. Ethnic identity is far more likely to proove or disproove the "Greekness" of Macedonains.

 

Back to the original topic: see my earlier post.

[Rameses the Great]

You can see much of the modern Middle East, still does use a lot of Greek thinking and ways such as the Phoenicians.

 

The Greek language were as follow:

Alpha

Beta

Theta

 

In Phoenician they were:

Aleph

Be

Th

 

You can see the Greeks have influenced the Middle East in many ways no doubt. However you could say the same vice-versa, whoever this was through indirect ways since they never conquered Greece.

[Pantagathus]

Rameses, what exactly is the point of your hooey post?

 

The Greeks got the alphabet from the Phoenicians. Furthermore, it can be argued that without the Phoenicians, the Greeks may have never gotten out of their early Iron Age dark ages.

 

Also, what does military conquest have to do with direct influence??

[Rameses the Great]

Rameses, what exactly is the point of your hooey post?

 

The Greeks got the alphabet from the Phoenicians. Furthermore, it can be argued that without the Phoenicians, the Greeks may have never gotten out of their early Iron Age dark ages.

 

Also, what does military conquest have to do with direct influence??

 

Since when did the Phoenicians greatly effect the Greeks? You said much of their influence was home grown and said that Egypt had no effect on Greece, now giving that effect to the Phoenicians.

[Pantagathus]

Since when did the Phoenicians greatly effect the Greeks?

I just said but to be more clear: 9th ~ 6th Centuries BC

 

You said much of their influence was home grown and said that Egypt had no effect on Greece, now giving that effect to the Phoenicians.

I'm not 'giving' anything to the Phoenicians. It's a matter of fact. If the Egyptians had gotten off their duffs instead of letting the Phoenicians run their trade they may have influenced the Greeks more.

[Rameses the Great]

I'm not 'giving' anything to the Phoenicians. It's a matter of fact. If the Egyptians had gotten off their duffs instead of letting the Phoenicians run their trade they may have influenced the Greeks more.

 

I'll act like I didn't here that.

 

Anyways, the question is Greek/Macedonian influence in the Middle East. I personally think after the conquests by Alexander, it did influece many things. I recall seeing Egyptian gods depicted in Greek-like pictures at the museum in Alexandria.

 

I also saw an Egypto-Hellenistic knife there too.

Edited February 9, 2007 by Rameses the Great