Dr. Hawass Calls For Return Of Stolen Artifact

[tflex]

Check out this link Dr. Hawass Calls for Return of Stolen Artifact

 

Dr. Hawass has been calling for all the stolen artifacts in European and American museums to be returned to Egypt. Stolen artifacts include the Rosetta stone in the British museum, the bust of Nefertiti in Berlin, the Dendera zodiac in the Louvre and the Ka-nefer-nefer mask in the St. Louis Art Museum etc.

 

He is also asking for the return of artifacts that were legally taken out of Egypt sometime ago like the bust of the vizier Ankh-haf (2590

[Rameses the Great]

So what do you think?

 

I believe he is doing a great job bringing the artifacts back. He came on the televison and said he knows he is winning because they are returning some of them. Do you know that more than half of the ancient Egyptian riches are overseas? Surely there should be some artifacts that they should keep but many must be broght back to Egypt. After all it is ours.

 

Through years of plunder from Romans, Jew, and Europeans we can't get all of them back. However ones that have been illadvisedly taken out of Egypt should be returend.

 

People saying that the treasures belongs to everyone is fine. You must also respect the rights of the people who made them. That why it is in the eye of the beholder.

 

After all it's not just the Egyptians treasure that is in there, it's their history, it's their ancestors, it's their life!

[Primus Pilus]

To the victor goes the spoils.

[Ursus]

Can they promise me that the Egyptians won't some day do to Pagan treasures what the Afghans let happen to the Buddhist statues? If not, then let the "stolen" items in Western hands.

[Neos Dionysos]

To the victor goes the spoils.

 

Indeed...

 

 

And the same thing goes for the countless treasures stolen from Constantinople in 1204, which adorn many museums in Europe... sure, it'd be nice to see them as they were intended but, such is life.

[Honorius]

im not against the reutning of artifacts to egypt only on the condition that they can properly preserve the artifacts for future generations..

[Virgil61]

On a side note, ol' self-promoting Hawass is no angel himself. Since he's been the government appointed 'Grand Poo-Bah' of antiquities in Egypt with the power to approve or decline field research he's been accused of a stranglehold on Egyptology in general. Get his favor or approval for your theory and you can do your field work in Egypt. Cross him and you'll be blackballed.

Edited June 6, 2006 by Virgil61

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Sheesh, good luck getting back the Rosetta Stone.

[Guest Shelby]

Check out this link Dr. Hawass Calls for Return of Stolen Artifact

 

Dr. Hawass has been calling for all the stolen artifacts in European and American museums to be returned to Egypt. Stolen artifacts include the Rosetta stone in the British museum, the bust of Nefertiti in Berlin, the Dendera zodiac in the Louvre and the Ka-nefer-nefer mask in the St. Louis Art Museum etc.

 

He is also asking for the return of artifacts that were legally taken out of Egypt sometime ago like the bust of the vizier Ankh-haf (2590

[Furius Venator]

I'd say there might be a case for returning things that were removed illegally within living memory (say 75 years or post 1930).

 

The rest is just one of those things really, it's silly to think that countries can be held accountable for the actions of previous generations.

[phil25]

And where would Dr Hawass put all the returned artifacts?

 

Cairo Museum is packed to capacity now - many of the display cases etc are in a poor state.

 

The new museum near the Pyramids seems to have been on the way for years. Will it be suitable - or be big enough, in the unlikely event that the good Dr is successful?

 

I personally am against this modern urge to return items to their "place of origin". The Rosetta stone was key to the decyphering of hieroglyphs - a European accomplishment (French). So is not its relevance to that period?

 

What is a "stolen" item? The Elgin Marbles were given to Lord Elgin by the then recognised government of Greece. Where does the principle begin and end.

 

Had it not been for Europeans much of classical art that survives would not have done so - the Parthenon was used as an armoury and exploded!! Someone earlier rightly referred to the taleban and the great Buddhist carvings which they destroyed. It is quite possible that Egypt could go fundamentalist at any stage in the near future - the islamicist fundamentalists could well seek to destroy what they see as pagan monstrosities and try to stop the pollution of their country by tourism by striking at tombs and historic items - destroying them. Do you want to expose the Armana Nefertiti or items from the metropolitan, Ashmolean or BM to that??

 

Two more general points:

 

* there has always been a trade in art and historic items; that is how culture has expanded. People collect old things whether they be manuscripts; art, books or relics. It is partly by bringing things together in wide ranging collections that connections get made and new thoughts emerge. Do we really want a world where amerindian culture can only be studied in the USA or Canada; Roman history in Italy, the Pharoahs in Egypt?

 

* London, New York, Berlin, Paris are major centres - many people go to them and enjoy the great museums and galleries. They then are inspired to travel to other countries to see the context of these great works - places they might otherwise not learn about or find a reason to visit. The great museums also offer a contextual experience, showing artifacts in a continuum, placing them in relation of contemporary cultures and to what went before and after. This would not be possible if items were in their places of origin.

 

Finally, I am deeply suspicious of the motives of the plea for return. At one level it seems immature - I want what is "mine" (whatever that means)! It is a child's plea. And like a child, we should be concerned as to whether the items - if given into their care - would be treated properly and cared for.

 

I know I am being politically incorrect to say this, but some of the regimes who appeal for their property to come back are highly corrupt. can we be certain that officials would not sell some itemns to collectors on a black-market? How would we know?

 

History has led to a "diaspora" of heritage. In many cases it would be impossible now to prove ownership in any true legal way as Government's and relationships have changed so much.

 

What I would urge, however, is the creation and provision of very high-quality replicas of many of the famous items, which could then be displayed in many places, providing context for many works in many places.

 

But i reject the modernist and ill-thought-out arguments for return to places of origin. It is emotional, short-sighted and lacks depth. Not good reasons for doing anything.

 

Passionately,

 

Phil

[Kosmo]

No way.

Those who "stole" this artifacts are the ones who created the science of history. The locals never went digging (unless for gold) before the french and the brits started to apreciate this things.

And a modern egiptian claiming spiritual property for what other people did thousends of years ago it's unnatural but very nationalistic.

Egiptian nationalism it's quite funny...

[Tobias]

I can only reiterate what has been said; in an ideal world, it would be right to give Egypt it's national heritage back, if Egypt could show that it would look after the artifacts properly and guarantee that all people could at least see these artifacts if they wished too.

[Rameses the Great]

No way.

Those who "stole" this artifacts are the ones who created the science of history. The locals never went digging (unless for gold) before the french and the brits started to apreciate this things.

And a modern egiptian claiming spiritual property for what other people did thousends of years ago it's unnatural but very nationalistic.

Egiptian nationalism it's quite funny...

 

Silly yes, but this is going to be government sanctioned. It's not like it's just going into Islamist hands. It will be preserved. The last time I went to Egypt everything was in good condition. They don't believe in preservation methods but they keep it safe from natural things. I agree that things that have been taken from the Frecnh and British are unretreivable. Napoleon stole 5,000 peices so we can't get it all back.

 

Besides I would not mess with Hawass, he's good...

[tflex]

I personally am against this modern urge to return items to their "place of origin". The Rosetta stone was key to the decyphering of hieroglyphs - a European accomplishment (French). So is not its relevance to that period?

 

Well, maybe then it should be returned to France, the Brits won't like that at all. Will they? They might even declare war on France , alright I'm exaggerating.

 

What is a "stolen" item?

 

To take (the item of another) without right or permission.

 

Had it not been for Europeans much of classical art that survives would not have done so - the Parthenon was used as an armoury and exploded!! Someone earlier rightly referred to the taleban and the great Buddhist carvings which they destroyed. It is quite possible that Egypt could go fundamentalist at any stage in the near future - the islamicist fundamentalists could well seek to destroy what they see as pagan monstrosities and try to stop the pollution of their country by tourism by striking at tombs and historic items - destroying them. Do you want to expose the Armana Nefertiti or items from the metropolitan, Ashmolean or BM to that??

 

I agree, that if it wasn't for the Europeans interest in ancient Egypt, much of these artficats would probably have been left to rot in the sun, or just sold in the black market by tomb robbers without a trace. But as far as Egypt in it's current state going the way of the Taliban, I highly doubt that; Egypt's economy relies heavily on tourism, and artifacts such as the Rosetta stone can only increase profits. Egypt like any other country in the Middle East has it's religious zealots, but it is by far one of the most secular countries in the Middle East, in terms of culture and politics. Your average Egyptian cherishes his glorious past, and Dr. Hawass has done a good job to nationalize excavations around the Pyramids, he's even advocated the death penalty for tomb robbers. He has to be credited with organizing the place and protecting it from all the looting and chaos that preceded it by Egyptians, Europeans etc.

 

* there has always been a trade in art and historic items; that is how culture has expanded. People collect old things whether they be manuscripts; art, books or relics. It is partly by bringing things together in wide ranging collections that connections get made and new thoughts emerge. Do we really want a world where amerindian culture can only be studied in the USA or Canada; Roman history in Italy, the Pharoahs in Egypt?

 

We're not talking about trade, but about theft. You can learn Egyptian history without stealing it. Just recently, there was a worldwide tour of Tutankhamun's tomb and other artifacts on display. The tomb was here in Los Angeles for almost 4 months. On the other hand, most Egyptians have never seen the Rosetta stone, or Neferititi's bust, and most of them can't afford to travel to Europe or the U.S. I can also tell you, that their definately will not be a tour to Egypt, simply because once the Rosetta stone lands in Egypt, it won't be coming back.

 

* London, New York, Berlin, Paris are major centres - many people go to them and enjoy the great museums and galleries. They then are inspired to travel to other countries to see the context of these great works - places they might otherwise not learn about or find a reason to visit. The great museums also offer a contextual experience, showing artifacts in a continuum, placing them in relation of contemporary cultures and to what went before and after. This would not be possible if items were in their places of origin.

 

Personally, I would prefer to see the artifacts in their natural setting, as long as they are well preserved.

 

Finally, I am deeply suspicious of the motives of the plea for return. At one level it seems immature - I want what is "mine" (whatever that means)! It is a child's plea. And like a child, we should be concerned as to whether the items - if given into their care - would be treated properly and cared for.

 

It's simply ridicolous to compare it to a child's plea, it's a nationalist reaction. C'mon Phil, if Egypt somehow got a hold of the British crown jewels, decided to display them in Cairo museum, and then refused to return them, how would you react? I think it's a bit insensitive to dismiss his plea as childish and immature.

 

I know I am being politically incorrect to say this, but some of the regimes who appeal for their property to come back are highly corrupt. can we be certain that officials would not sell some itemns to collectors on a black-market? How would we know?

 

Again, Hawass backed by the Egyptian government, has done an excellent job in reducing and almost eliminating the illegal sale of artifacts, through stiff penalties.

 

History has led to a "diaspora" of heritage. In many cases it would be impossible now to prove ownership in any true legal way as Government's and relationships have changed so much.

 

I agree that current governments and museums are not liable to what happened in the past, but they are responsible for their refusal to return stolen items in the present. As far as ownership, if there is no legal documents to prove their ownership, then obviously they were stolen, and their legal ownership is the place they were stolen from.

 

What I would urge, however, is the creation and provision of very high-quality replicas of many of the famous items, which could then be displayed in many places, providing context for many works in many places.

 

Nobody wants to look at replicas, it's just not the same. People want to see the real thing, they want to view an item thats thousands of years old, that makes all the difference, not some replica.

 

But i reject the modernist and ill-thought-out arguments for return to places of origin. It is emotional, short-sighted and lacks depth. Not good reasons for doing anything.

 

Thats your point of view, and an opposing point of view does not automatically qualify it as "short-sighted", "lacks depth", or "ill-thought-out arguments".

 

I think PP put it best, "To the victor goes the spoils", I understand that argument better. It makes sense.

Edited June 6, 2006 by tflex