"Roman Salute"

[Skarr]

In fact, before Hitler, even the Boy Scouts had this as one of their symbols before it was withdrawn (sometime in the 20's I think).

 

I don't know if it was a Boy Scout badge or not. But if it once was, it may have been because the symbol was also used by North American Indians. Its meaning to them, I know not.

 

Here is a picture of a Boy Scout Medal (well before WWII)

 

Boy Scout medal with swastika

[DecimusCaesar]

Here is a picture of a Boy Scout Medal (well before WWII)

 

Boy Scout medal with swastika

 

interestingly it has the fleur-de-lis in the middle.

 

On another note, I still can't find the source claiming that it was Marius who invented the Roman salute, perhaps John Keegan was mistaken about it, but I still can't find.

 

The swastika was also a popular symbol among Roman soldiers in the third century AD as depicted on the 'Great Hunt' mosaic at Piazza Armerina in Sicily.

 

Here is an illustration-

 

Dura Europus Soldiers

[Gaius Octavius]

Does anyone know when the 'American 45th Infantry' (Division?) wore this patch?

 

I've a vague recollection of seeing this symbol backwards and upside down. Anyone?

[WotWotius]

Actually, that is a little incorrect. The "swastika" is very much an ancient Hindu symbol, which is a mystical representation of two major ideas - time and consciousness. It is very commonly found throughout India, especially in ancient temples and sculptures, where the design is etched into the stone wall or the column, going back thousands of years.

 

The swastika is a sacred symbol in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism alike. My city (Leicester, UK) houses the only Jain temple in Europe, and it is covered in swastikas. Likewise the Buddhist societies in Leicester additionally use the symbol; so Favonius Cornelius was correct in saying that the swastika has associations with Buddhism.

 

Hitler hijacked this symbol for his use and the meaning today is lost, as people invariably associate this ancient symbol with the "Nazis". In layman terms, this symbol (before Hitler) was associated with good luck. In many Hindu charms, there are also dots (representing a human soul) in each of the spaces formed by the spiral. This was another way of explaining the multi-faceted view of reality in that different human beings may exist on the same place of consciousness but in different places, as it were, as they possess different realities (which in this case may be seen as different points of view), because of their unique, individual experiences.

 

It is not as simple as Hitler stealing the symbol straight from India

Edited September 21, 2006 by WotWotius

[Gaius Octavius]

There it is. Backwards and upside down. Is there a difference in meaning?

 

 

Yes, Osprey place the swastika on the shields of Samnites:

And RTR (heavily influenced by Osprey illustrations) also uses the swastika as a Samnite logo.

Edited September 21, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[DecimusCaesar]

I've searched in the book and I can't find any mention of the swastika or why it's depicted that way, perhaps the swastika is placed in a different direction by Richard Hook, the artist. The figure itself is listed as F3, but isn't given a description like the other 2 figures in the appendix.

 

There is no entry in the Oxford Classical Dictionary on the Swastika.

[Gaius Paulinus Maximus]

I've searched in the book and I can't find any mention of the swastika or why it's depicted that way, perhaps the swastika is placed in a different direction by Richard Hook, the artist. The figure itself is listed as F3, but isn't given a description like the other 2 figures in the appendix.

 

There is no entry in the Oxford Classical Dictionary on the Swastika.

 

 

Try this site it has lots of info about the history, uses, different positions etc

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/swastika

[Antiochus of Seleucia]

This screenshot I took confirms WotWotius' post. Samnites with Swastikas.

[phil25]

Did you know that Kaiser Wilhelm II, when in exile in Holland in the 20s, wrote a book bout the swastika?

 

On the Roman salute and standards with a hand at the top - does this not relate to the unit of the Roman army known as the "maniple"?

 

Various statues of Emperors - including the Capitoline Marcus Aurelius and the Prima Porta Augustus - show the outstretched arm, but the hand is always loosely held, the fingers open. This gesture, I always understood to be the "salutatio" when a general addressed his troops. It can also be seen on coins.

 

No doubt both Mussolini and Hollywood drew on these images for inspiration.

 

Gesture is an odd thing, and has to be seen in motion before it can be really understood. Take the so-called "royal wave" as practiced notably by the late Queen Mother. This was an odd, "scooping" motion of the hand, rather than a usual "wave".

 

Actually, the gesture is similar to that used in some religious rites to draw the fumes of incense over the celebrant. the royal wave symbolically draws the plaudits of the populace over the King/queen to soak them in that love and fervour. They are drawing out the loyalty and love of their people. Popes used and still use a version of the same gesture as the extend their arms, palms upwards, while on a balcony and then let the palms come up towards the chest. Again, they encourage and bask in the adulation of the faithful.

 

We cannot know what else was involved in the salutatio - statues don't move and Roman emperors were not filmed - but to interpret a simple static gesture too firmly could IMHO be misleading.

 

Phil

Edited October 14, 2006 by phil25

[caldrail]

Yep - I agree. An outstretched arm is a simple human gesture of acknowledgement. Not quite a salute in military terms though.

[Gaius Octavius]

In my opinion, this is the TYPE of thread that should be edited and added to Academia. It is well cited and without vicious argument.

Edited October 17, 2006 by Gaius Octavius

[DecimusCaesar]

I found this quoted from a review to a book called Gladiator: Film and History, which discussed how symbols and images of ancient Rome are portrayed on film:

 

Dr. Rex Curry's discovery that the USA was the origin of the salute of the National Socialist German Workers' Party. Dr. Curry showed that the USA's early Pledge of Allegiance (to the flag) used a straight-arm salute and it was the source of the salute of the monstrous National Socialist German Workers' Party. The salute of German Socialists has sometimes been labeled an "ancient Roman salute." Dr. Curry helped to establish that it was not an ancient Roman salute, and that the "ancient Roman salute" is a modern myth.

[Primus Pilus]

Dr. Rex Curry's discovery that the USA was the origin of the salute of the National Socialist German Workers' Party. Dr. Curry showed that the USA's early Pledge of Allegiance (to the flag) used a straight-arm salute and it was the source of the salute of the monstrous National Socialist German Workers' Party. The salute of German Socialists has sometimes been labeled an "ancient Roman salute." Dr. Curry helped to establish that it was not an ancient Roman salute, and that the "ancient Roman salute" is a modern myth.

 

Curry seems to have an agenda well beyond the origins of the salute. There may or not be links between the original American "Pledge of Allegiance" and the Nazi salute, but he acts as if the US salute was the first time humanity ever performed such a straight armed salute. The US stopped the practice during WWII because of the similarities, but Curry seems to believe that the existence of the US Pledge is an indication of a guised continuation of national socialism. Some of his research seems quite sound and provocatively interesting, but the conclusions are so tainted by his agenda that they border on the bizarre.

[DecimusCaesar]

Despite Curry's claims that the 'Roman salute' originated in America (it doesn't matter if it did or did not) does this actually mean that the salute was a modern invention that through various 'peplums' and Hollywood films came to be associated with the ancient Romans?

 

Was he right or did the salute originate in ancient Rome?

[Kosmo]

I've seen svaztika as a decoration in a roman mosaic from a market in Tomis (today Constanta) and chained szvastika's are a decoration on many orthodox churches as a solar symbol of defence against evil.