Pre-roman Connections To Britain

[spittle]

57BC. The tribes of Northern Gaul became polarised in alliances that were either for or against Caesar. This was the result of Caesars defeat of the Germanic King Ariovistas, a year before, and the realisation that the Gallic peoples had helped remove the Germans only to have Romans remain permanently.Out of the German frying pan and into the Roman fire.

 

The Belgae tribes had quickly allied into a huge force and equally quickly broken up into serarate tribes again and started to head back to their homes. Caesar accepted hostages and surrender from several of these tribes, after short periods of hostility in some cases. He then went up against the Bellovaci.

 

The Bellovaci put up little resistance and swiftly surrendered. Romes Gallic allies, the Aedui, interceded with Caesar on behalf of the Bellovaci pleading that their two tribes had long standing friendship and the recent hostility of the Bellovaci was blamed on a few Chieftains who saw the Aedui's alliance with Rome has slavery. These men had now fled to Britain and could no longer influence tribal policy

 

* What level of cooperation and communication existed between allied tribes from Britain and the continent?

* How long ago had these tribes managed to overcome a sea crossing in order to contact each other?

* Any other information that applies to this thread would be appreciated.

Edited October 21, 2006 by spittle

[DecimusCaesar]

There has been a trading link between Britain and France for thousands of years, probably as far back as the Neolithic era, certainly by the Bronze Age. New theories suggest that the Catuvellani tribe that existed in Southern England at the time was ruled by a upper-class that consisted of Belgae nobles, which explains the high level of La Tene type culture and Oppida Forts in the area. The Atrebates and Regni were also heavily influenced by the Belgae. Caesar says that the people of Cantium, the Cantii in south-east England were the most civilised people he encountered in Britain and these people also had a heavy Belgic political and cultural influence. These people were obviously heavily influenced by the tribes from the continent. They had been trading with the Gauls for a long time selling hunting dogs and tin to the continentals among other things. Wotwotius probably has more information about this subject.

[Kosmo]

As one tribe in Ireland was called Belgae it is possible that this influence was spread even further.

[spittle]

Fascinating stuff, guys.

 

Popular culture would have us believe that when Caesar first set sail to Britain they didn't know whether to expect three headed monsters or brigadoon type pixies! Almost as though they were at risk of falling off the edge of the world. The facts seem to suggest that Rome had intelligence of Britain long before they visited from Tribes that existed on both sides of the channel and had traded with each other for centuries.

 

And, conversely, Brits must have been aware of this European 'superpower'. Although some articles would have us believe that Caesars arrival in Britain was greeted with as much awe and shock as the Spanish arrival in the New World. (I.E. Return of God like beings).

 

The lead upto Roman and Brits meeting is a subject that I would love to find out more about. Were there factfinders dispatched to Northern Gallic tribes, with known links to this Island? Did the Brit tribes anticipate an attempted Roman invasion by making alliances with neighbouring tribes? Had the Romans been using mutually allied tribes as intermediaries between themselves and Britain to trade goods? (I imagine tin and dogs going east. Wine and luxury goods going west).

 

Are there any books or articles that deal with this area of study?

[DecimusCaesar]

Julius Caesar himself was responsible for perpetuating the image of Britain as an island that people knew very little about and this image is rather true ( but it's also been exaggerated by Caesar to make his invasion of the island seem even more dramatic) as he says in his Conquest of Gaul:

 

"...Of all this the Gauls knew next to nothing; for in the ordinary way traders are the only people who visit Britain, and even they know only that part of the coast which faces Gaul. And so, although he (Caesar) interviewed traders from all parts, he could not ascertin anything about the size of the island, the character and strength of the tribes which inhabited it, their manner of fighting and customs, or the harbours capable of accomodating a large fleet of ships."

 

This is supported with his descriptions of the legions landing in Britain and being amazed at the masses of British Warriors come to meet them on shore. Britain; despite the information brought to him by traders; would have still seemed a very strange land; where men still rode into battle in chariots as if it were the heroic age.

 

 

As one tribe in Ireland was called Belgae it is possible that this influence was spread even further.

 

There are other tribes from Britain that share names with similar tribes on the continent, the Parisii are one tribe from Yorkshire which share the same name as a tribe found around the Seine Valley in France. Modern scholars do not believe that Parisii found In Britain are migrants from the continent though, but there are several interesting links between their culture.

[spittle]

What irf Caesar was telling the truth about the info (or lack of) he recieved from the gallic merchants?

 

He was asking for help from a newly dominated people that could have taken away their monopoly on trade with Britain (or a least a tint corner of the south of England) and put the Romans in charge of another area of their lives.

Under those conditions I think I would have played dumb.

 

"Britannia? Never heard of it."

[Gaius Paulinus Maximus]

One of the reasons Caesar attempted to invade Britannia was because he had heard that it was an island rich with minerals and ore, so he certainly had some infomation, probably a lot more than he was letting on

.

Like D.C says, Caesar was quite partial to the odd exaggeration now and then and if it helped to make his achievement that little bit more spectacular then why not keep a lid on it.

Edited October 26, 2006 by Gaius Paulinus Maximus

[Pantagathus]

Let us not forget that Pytheas of Massalia travelled there and wrote about the expedition in the 4th Century BC.

 

Cornwall tin had been known to Mediterranean traders since early in the 1st Millennium BC.

[spittle]

Some tribes had chief's with power on both sides of the water so a stable and regular connection between Gaul and Britain certainly existed. I'd imagine that a handful of Roman (or Romanized tribe members) merchants had visited Britain. The fact that news of Caesars intended journey had reached the Brits in time for them to gather together a resistance force shows that the channel was as much a pathway as a barrier.

 

As for Caesars writings showing him in the most favourable light, What would one expect from a politician? Spin (the latest name for this practise) is human nature.

 

PYTHEAS OF MASSALIA? I would be very interested in reading his writings or anything concerning British connection/information with the Mediterean civilisations prior to Claudius colonizing the island.

Where can I find more about Pytheas?

[DecimusCaesar]

Barry Cunliffe published a book called 'The Adventures of Pytheas the Greek' (Or something similar as I am writing from memory) - despite the title I believe it is an academic study although I haven't seen or read it. I have read other books by Barry Cunliffe and they are very good, he is a world renowned expert on Iron Age Europe. He was even knighted recently for his contributions to Prehistoric and Iron Age European studies.

 

As for Pytheas himself his works are now extant, but they were quoted in other works by ancient geographers. I believe he never actually visited Britain but rather that he made contact with traders in Iberia who told him about the isle. It was in his work that he refers to Britain as 'Albion' - the first mention of this name in history. He might also have referred to the island as Prettani (the Celtic ? word for Britain was Prydain) which the Romans later softened to Britannnia.

[Andrew Dalby]

Barry Cunliffe published a book called 'The Adventures of Pytheas the Greek' (Or something similar as I am writing from memory) - despite the title I believe it is an academic study although I haven't seen or read it. I have read other books by Barry Cunliffe and they are very good, he is a world renowned expert on Iron Age Europe. He was even knighted recently for his contributions to Prehistoric and Iron Age European studies.

 

As for Pytheas himself his works are now extant, but they were quoted in other works by ancient geographers. I believe he never actually visited Britain but rather that he made contact with traders in Iberia who told him about the isle. It was in his work that he refers to Britain as 'Albion' - the first mention of this name in history. He might also have referred to the island as Prettani (the Celtic ? word for Britain was Prydain) which the Romans later softened to Britannnia.

 

It's a long time ago that I looked into this and I haven't seen Cunliffe's book: I'm sure it'll be good. My understanding was that Pytheas really did get to Britain and possibly even sailed round it. His lost work is fairly frequently quoted by Strabo (who was a very suspicious reader and may well have expressed those doubts about Pytheas), so if you look at the index to Strabo you will find a good deal about Pytheas. But probably Cunliffe brings it all together even better.

[Pantagathus]

He was even knighted recently for his contributions to Prehistoric and Iron Age European studies.

He deserves it...

 

I have his book on Pytheas and it's a very good treatment of the subject.

[spittle]

"If you look at the index to STRABO you will find a good deal about Pytheas"

 

Exactly what do you mean by the 'index to Strabo'?

 

Edited for information added below.

Barry Cunliffe's book is titled "The Extraordinary Voyage of Pytheas the Greek" and is less than

Edited October 27, 2006 by spittle

[Pantagathus]

Exactly what do you mean by the 'index to Strabo'?

I imagine Andrew means that if you have handy the Loeb edition of Strabo's Geography and look the index at the back, you will find that Strabo indeed remarks about Pytheas' testimony quite a few times (which he does).

 

Polybius also mentions him... (not very flatteringly)

 

In treating of the geography of Europe I shall say nothing of the ancient geographers, but shall confine my attention to their modern critics, Dicaearchus, Eratosthenes, who is the most recent writer on geography, and Pytheas, who has misled many readers by professing to have traversed on foot the whole of Britain, the coastline of which island, he says, is more than forty thousand stades. And again by his stories of Thule and the countries in its neighbourhood, "in which," he says, "there is neither unmixed land or sea or air, but a kind of compound of all three (like the jelly-fish or Pulmo Marinus), in which earth and sea and everything else are held in suspense, and which forms a kind of connecting link to the whole, through which one can neither walk nor sail." This substance, which he says is like the Pulmo Marinus, he saw with his own eyes, the rest he learnt by report.

 

Such is Pytheas's story, and he adds that, on his return thence, he traversed the whole of the coast of Europe from Gades to the Tanais. But we cannot believe that a private person, who was also a poor man, should have made such immense journeys by land and sea. Even Eratosthenes doubted this part of his story, though he believed what he said about Britain, and Gades, and Iberia. I would much rather believe the Messenian (Euhemerus) than him. The latter is content with saying that he sailed to one country which he calls Panchaia; while the former asserts that he has actually seen the whole northern coast of Europe up to the very verge of the world, which one would hardly believe of Hermes himself if he said it. Eratosthenes calls Euhemerus a Bergaean, yet believes Pytheas, though Dicaearchus himself did not...

[DecimusCaesar]

Barry Cunliffe's book is titled "The Extraordinary Voyage of Pytheas the Greek" and is less than