M. Porcius Cato Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 Also, the ages of Cicero, Caesar, and Cato are all wrong. Cato is depicted as being older than Caesar, who looks older than Cicero. In fact, Cicero was older than Caesar, who was older than Cato. I also remain mystified why they failed to mention the family connections between Cato, Servilia, and Brutus. As Servilia's oldest male family member, Cato had control over whether Servilia could marry Caesar, which I suspect annoyed Caesar and Servilia a great deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 I can only assume , to your ire MPC , that Karl Johnson was chosen for his apoplectic cussedness of manner-hence framing Cato as a bitter reactionary. His demeanour seemed to have something of the Knoxian Presbytery about it, versus GJC's rather more "liberal" personal behaviour. I suggest the ages and relationships have been skewed as plot devices, and we are invited to to see GJC as "modernising"? Just a thought. http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...si&img=1257 doesnt look too happy does he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 Yes, to my bitter ire! What, do the producers not know that young men too can rage? Have they forgotten all those young idealists, with such a radiant sense of right and wrong that even old Moses himself would have felt himself a soft touch next to them? The stereotype of the old moralist is backwards--men typically grow more cynical and forgiving with age, not more idealistic and judgmental. Let anyone with a teenage daughter disagree now or forever hold his peace! IMO, Harris' depiction of Cato in Imperium is much closer to the sources than Johnson's depiction of Cato in HBO's Rome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spittle Posted October 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 During a Senate meeting concerning the Catiline conspiracy Caesar was handed a note. Cato demanded he read it aloud. Caesar declined. Cato became more demanding (sensing he had Caesar on the ropes?) so Caesar passed him the note. It was a love letter from Cato's half sister Servilia. Cato, visilbly angry, called Caesar a drunk. I want to preface this by stating that I think HBO's Rome is the best thing on television. Its one of the three television series that I anticipate with genuine excitement (Soprano's and Deadwood are the other two) and finding mistakes/suggesting better ways to make the show is not intended to rubbish it but to encourage debate. I mention the above Caesar and Cato in the Senate anecdote because, imho, the REAL relationships (Caesar's mistress is Servilia. Servilia's brother is Cato. Cato is Caesars Senate nemesis. Brutus is Servilia's son/Cato's nephew/Caesars unofficially adopted son. Pompey is Caesars son-in-law. Pompey had Brutus' father executed. Pompey and Brutuis are allies against Caesar.....) are far more fascinating than the fictional lesbian relationship, the made up husband Glabius or anything a screen writer could imagine. The dynamic of this group must have been electric! Far superior facts to any fictional creations. Did Brutus' wife kill herself by eating hot coals when she learned of Brutus' suicide? Was she Cato's daughter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil25 Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 This is where, I think, in the past people did react differently to the way we so, Spittle. I emphasise that this is purely a subjective interpretation and others think that our predecessors in ancient cultures were just as we are. I differ. In my researches on C15th English history, I find Cecily Neville, Duchess of York (mother of Richard III). She had several sisters and brothers in a large family, that died or suffered bereavement because of her "in-laws" actions. Her bother (Salisbury) and nephew (Warwick) died in - or as a result of - the same battle (Wakefield) that killed her second surviving son (Rutland). Other relatives also died. A brothers in law (husband of her sister, Buckingham) had died in an earlier battle. She spent time in the custody of a sister. Her golden elsest son died young; her next surviving son (Clarence) was judicially murdered; her grandsons disappeared and may have been killed by order of her youngest son (Richard III) who himself was killed in battle when his mother was about 80. This catalogue of tragedy would drive any modern person insane (IMHO) yet she lived on. (I have not mentioned the children who died in infancy). She was Queen of England in effect - and in reality but for chance. I entirely agree the electricity of the Catoian/Servilian, Caesarian relations, Spittle. How did they cope with the (to us very difficult) tensions. The "old" view was that people in the past were more like children, with emotions on the surface. I cannot agree with that. But cope they seem to have done. Though of course, what part all those relationships played in causing Brutus to plunge in his sword, is a nice question. Colleen McCulliogh takes a lot of ink to try to explain it. But did it play any part at all, at the end of the day. Cicero's account of the post assassination meeting presided over by Servilia, seems devoid of any trace of such elements. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 Did Brutus' wife kill herself by eating hot coals when she learned of Brutus' suicide?Was she Cato's daughter? Porcia was Cato's daughter by his first wife. Also, she presumably didn't actually EAT hot coals to kill herself. Rather, she inhaled their fumes, which was a fairly common method of suicide. I also agree that the real relationships were far more interesting that the lesbian sex. Not that there's anything wrong with lesbian sex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 Phil, perhaps you may , therefore, help me to recall the author of this paraphrased remark: " Well no-one in my family has ever been executed for treason!" riposte- " that is because, Sir , there are no Gentlemen in your family!" Is that a Jacobean quote? Its certainly a Jacobean sentiment. This might be the start of an unrelated thread, but- the emotional landscape of antiquity, indeed recent history seems to both resonate (the naughty Pompeiian graffiti ) amd be likewise remote (the arranged marriage). However I suggest that the extension of the idea of romantic love to the peasantry (read -working class for industrial /post industrial societies) (and the "marriage across social/class barriers") are of such novel and recent fabrication as to be completely anachronistic in world history. I suggest the key phrase in Phil's last post is "any modern person" , whereas the Roman Patricians and the European aristocracy of a millenium and a half later would at once recognise the difference between personal ("selfish") emotional preferences and familial ("honourable") allegiance and alliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 the idea of romantic love to the peasantry (read -working class for industrial /post industrial societies) (and the "marriage across social/class barriers") are of such novel and recent fabrication as to be completely anachronistic in world history. Then why the popularity of the story of Pyramus and Thisbe, the original "star-crossed lovers"? Surely the tale of a love that transcends social barriers is as old as dirt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 the idea of romantic love to the peasantry (read -working class for industrial /post industrial societies) (and the "marriage across social/class barriers") are of such novel and recent fabrication as to be completely anachronistic in world history. Then why the popularity of the story of Pyramus and Thisbe, the original "star-crossed lovers"? Surely the tale of a love that transcends social barriers is as old as dirt. I suggest that the conflict of Romance versus Duty is one of the oldest conflicts in Human History. Except now we dont have the benefit of arranged marriages in the West. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spittle Posted November 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 The battle between the head and the heart must surely be a built in flaw of humankind no matter what the historical age or culture. wasn't Pompey laughed at for his intense love for Julia? I would go so far as to state that lust is a necessary part of our continuation as a species and that lust and the irratiional feeling commonly known as love are inseperable, in most cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Porcius Cato Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 A recent posting by Pertinax contained a link to Roman graffiti. It's interesting how much of it revolves around the topic of love, including this one regarding a weaver's love of a slave girl: I.10.2-3 (Bar of Prima); 8258, 8259: The story of Successus, Severus and Iris is played out on the walls of a bar: [severus]: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princeps Posted November 7, 2006 Report Share Posted November 7, 2006 I think this thread has been done before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaiaCaesari524 Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Also, Octavia is seen feeding species of parrot that will mot be known to Europeans for 1500 years and 1800 years. I know its less dramatic than lesbianism and murdered husbands but I keep parrots so I noticed this mistake instantly. This isn't really related to any of the mentioned questions..but I have a question of my own: WHEN IS THERE GOING TO BE A MOVIE?!??!?!? I feel as though they rushed through the series..they covered a 15 year civil war in a matter of a few hours! They denied the petition to make a third season but have stated that there will be a movie made out of the series...this was in the beginning of '08! Does anyone know additional info. on this matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurelia Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Also, Octavia is seen feeding species of parrot that will mot be known to Europeans for 1500 years and 1800 years. I know its less dramatic than lesbianism and murdered husbands but I keep parrots so I noticed this mistake instantly. This isn't really related to any of the mentioned questions..but I have a question of my own: WHEN IS THERE GOING TO BE A MOVIE?!??!?!? I feel as though they rushed through the series..they covered a 15 year civil war in a matter of a few hours! They denied the petition to make a third season but have stated that there will be a movie made out of the series...this was in the beginning of '08! Does anyone know additional info. on this matter? And you think a movie is going to be less rushed?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostOfClayton Posted September 1, 2010 Report Share Posted September 1, 2010 I've got a feeling that this may cause consternation, but here goes. Last week I fancied watching HBO Rome again, but decided this time to do it with the "All Roads Lead To Rome" feature turned on. If you've never done it before - do it. Even I, who knows everything there is to know about Rome (that's what I tell the punters, anyway - sadly far from true) learned much of interest. But it does open up a whole raft of new fodder for this topic. The one that jumped out at me was the translation of "Primus Pilus" as "First Spear Centurion". I always believed it meant "First File" (as in 'rank and . . .' rather than 'nail . . .'), and 'First Spear' was one of those common misconceptions. I've noticed Wikipedia agrees with me (more room for consternation for mention of the 'W' word, I fear). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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