WotWotius Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Off topic but possibly of interest: The Greeks were also known to sacrifice puppies to the goddess Hekate There is also an astounding amount of archaeological evidence that suggests that residents of Sardis (in Ancient Lydia), sacrificed puppies to a deity: various dog carcasses, dating from the time of the Seleucids, have been found in a mutilated state inside sacrificial urns dotted around the city walls. The deity they were sacrificed to was most probably Hermes. Though also the god of thieves, Hermes was hypocritically the god of theft protection. Sacrificing a dog may well symbolise a guard dog, or another a life form associated with household security. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Favonius Cornelius Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Off topic but possibly of interest: The Greeks were also known to sacrifice puppies to the goddess Hekate There is also an astounding amount of archaeological evidence that suggests that residents of Sardis (in Ancient Lydia), sacrificed puppies to a deity: various dog carcasses, dating from the time of the Seleucids, have been found in a mutilated state inside sacrificial urns dotted around the city walls. The deity they were sacrificed to was most probably Hermes. Though also the god of thieves, Hermes was hypocritically the god of theft protection. Sacrificing a dog may well symbolise a guard dog, or another a life form associated with household security. Puppies?! Those sick bastards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotWotius Posted October 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Indeed. The reason why I posted this information is because I had to sit through an hour-long lecture (given by a visiting scholar) which, in extremely visceral detail, explored the topic of religious sacrifices in Lydia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 The deity they were sacrificed to was most probably Hermes. Though also the god of thieves, Hermes was hypocritically the god of theft protection. Sacrificing a dog may well symbolise a guard dog, or another a life form associated with household security. What support did the scholar give to this theory other than a preceived 'logical' presumption? I have never, ever come accross an ancient author hint at that type of sacrifice to Hermes. Time of the Seleucids you say? One could also make a conclusive leap that it was a Persian tradition carried over from the period of occupation because there is written evidence of Persian veneration of the canine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Favonius Cornelius Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 We're speaking of Lydia in Asia Minor correct? Isn't it speculated that the Etruscans are originally from that area? Wouldn't it be interesting to speculate further that the Etruscan haruspeces' inspection of entrails might have some cultural connection with the rites of this area? Sorry Pantagathus... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotWotius Posted October 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 The deity they were sacrificed to was most probably Hermes. Though also the god of thieves, Hermes was hypocritically the god of theft protection. Sacrificing a dog may well symbolise a guard dog, or another a life form associated with household security. What support did the scholar give to this theory other than a preceived 'logical' presumption? I have never, ever come accross an ancient author hint at that type of sacrifice to Hermes. Time of the Seleucids you say? One could also make a conclusive leap that it was a Persian tradition carried over from the period of occupation because there is written evidence of Persian veneration of the canine... Various coins depicting Hermes have been found on the site. However, on these coins, his image was shown with an eagle, not a dog. Therefore, the basis of his theory was predominantly 'logical' presumption. He also speculated that the bones may just have easily have been associated with the city's two major deities: Cybelle, and Artemis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Various coins depicting Hermes have been found on the site. However, on these coins, his image was shown with an eagle, not a dog. Therefore, the basis of his theory was predominantly 'logical' presumption. He also speculated that the bones may just have easily have been associated with the city's two major deities: Cybelle, and Artemis. OK, so WotWotius it appears the lecturer wasn't entirely pulling this concept out of the neither regions of his bowels... The Liddell-Scott dictionary gives the following definitions: Kandaules: dog-throttler, Lydian name for Hermes & name of a Lydian king (in Herodotus, the one who lost Sardis to the Gyges) & Kunagches:(sp?) dog-throttler, title of Hermes Judging by the abbreviation/name of the first source listed for these two epithets (Hippon?), it seems to be perhaps a Byzantine source? Maybe Andrew Dalby can help us out here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 OK, so maybe this is why Hermes was the 'Dog Throttler': "There was a four-cornered statue of Hermes [a Herma] by the side of the road, with a heap of stones piled at its base. A dog approached the statue and said to it, 'To begin with, Hermes, I salute you! And now I am going to anoint you, since I cannot let a god go by without anointing him, much less a god of the athletes.' Hermes said to the dog, 'If you can just leave the oil alone and not pee on me, I shall be grateful enough; you do not need to honour me in any other way!" - Aesop, Fables 564 (from Babrius, Fabulae 48) Note: I have split this out of the Carthage thread for obvious reasons... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 "There was a four-cornered statue of Hermes [a Herma] by the side of the road, with a heap of stones piled at its base. A dog approached the statue and said to it, 'To begin with, Hermes, I salute you! And now I am going to anoint you, since I cannot let a god go by without anointing him, much less a god of the athletes.' Hermes said to the dog, 'If you can just leave the oil alone and not pee on me, I shall be grateful enough; you do not need to honour me in any other way!" - Aesop, Fables 564 (from Babrius, Fabulae 48) ROTFLOL!!! :lol: erm...carry on.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotWotius Posted October 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 ...hehe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Dalby Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Various coins depicting Hermes have been found on the site. However, on these coins, his image was shown with an eagle, not a dog. Therefore, the basis of his theory was predominantly 'logical' presumption. He also speculated that the bones may just have easily have been associated with the city's two major deities: Cybelle, and Artemis. OK, so WotWotius it appears the lecturer wasn't entirely pulling this concept out of the neither regions of his bowels... The Liddell-Scott dictionary gives the following definitions: Kandaules: dog-throttler, Lydian name for Hermes & name of a Lydian king (in Herodotus, the one who lost Sardis to the Gyges) & Kunagches:(sp?) dog-throttler, title of Hermes Judging by the abbreviation/name of the first source listed for these two epithets (Hippon?), it seems to be perhaps a Byzantine source? Maybe Andrew Dalby can help us out here... Sorry, I missed this thread till now. Yes, I know your "Hippon." He's an old friend. He's the scurrilous and obscene early Greek poet Hipponax. Only known in fragments unluckily, but some of the fragments are quite juicy ... He appears (according to this particular fragment) to have been engaged in burglary, or pretending he was (you can't always take poets literally) and sends off a short prayer to Hermes the dog-throttler to help him get over a wall, possibly before the guard-dog gets him. WW's visiting lecturer either wrote, or else had read, the following: C. H. Greenewalt, \Ritual dinners in early historic Sardis\. Berkeley, 1976. Yes, they were dog dinners, it seems. I understand there is archaeological evidence (the bones in sacrificial pots) as well as the scattered literary evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotWotius Posted November 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 C. H. Greenewalt, \Ritual dinners in early historic Sardis\. Berkeley, 1976. Yes, that is the man. Yes, they were dog dinners, it seems. I understand there is archaeological evidence (the bones in sacrificial pots) as well as the scattered literary evidence. From what I remember, it seems that the remains of the canines illustrate evidence for skinning (various slice marks have been found on bones etc.); therefore, they may well have been served, in one form or another, in a ritualistic meal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted November 6, 2006 Report Share Posted November 6, 2006 Sorry, I missed this thread till now. Yes, I know your "Hippon." He's an old friend. He's the scurrilous and obscene early Greek poet Hipponax. Only known in fragments unluckily, but some of the fragments are quite juicy ... He appears (according to this particular fragment) to have been engaged in burglary, or pretending he was (you can't always take poets literally) and sends off a short prayer to Hermes the dog-throttler to help him get over a wall, possibly before the guard-dog gets him. Well then that sheds less light on the significance to Lydian cult practices then I thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.