Lost_Warrior Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 Oh interesting!! I guess it never occurred to me to "tie up" the gods...what's the reasoning behind that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violentilla Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 Oh interesting!! I guess it never occurred to me to "tie up" the gods...what's the reasoning behind that? It is one of the things that was done for the festival. There were ropes kept around the feet of the statue of Saturn, they were untied for the festival and retied afterward. Since the Saturnalia was about reversal of roles and a little bit of unruliness, he was kept tied up the rest of the year. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 I think I understand, now that I've read through the rest of the ritual. Does it have something to do with him being thrown to Earth and being "released" for a time? I'm starting to see how the "reversal of roles" could fit in too...his children threw him out of heaven, thus, the children are in control, role reversal. Am I right or way off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violentilla Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 (edited) I think I understand, now that I've read through the rest of the ritual. Does it have something to do with him being thrown to Earth and being "released" for a time? I'm starting to see how the "reversal of roles" could fit in too...his children threw him out of heaven, thus, the children are in control, role reversal. Am I right or way off? Actually, it has to do with the return to the 'Golden Age', when all things were equal and all things were free. It was during this time that Saturn reigned, and so the Saturnalia is about returning to this time for one day (Kronos is the counterpart to the Roman Saturn). Hesiod: A golden race of mortal men who lived in the time of Kronos when he was reigning in heaven. And they lived like gods without sorrow of heart, remote and free from toil: miserable age rested not on them . . . The fruitful earth unforced bare them fruit abundantly and without stint. They dwelt in ease and peace upon their lands with many good things. . . . Ovid in the sixth book of his Metamorphoses: In the beginning was the Golden Age, when men of their own accord, without threat of punishment, without laws, maintained good faith and did what was right. . . . The earth itself, without compulsion, untouched by the hoe, unfurrowed by any share, produced all things spontaneously. . . . It was a season of everlasting spring. Edited August 30, 2007 by Violentilla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 Oh yea, duh, that makes sense. I think I zeroed in on the wrong part LOL. Thanks for the info! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violentilla Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 Oh yea, duh, that makes sense. I think I zeroed in on the wrong part LOL. Thanks for the info! No problem! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted August 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 Did you make the (very attractive) garland of a particularly auspicious plant? Mandrake and Hellebore spring to mind of course, but "anythingge that dothe stupifye" would be in the frame according to Cornelius Agrippa, all dark coloured fruits are deemed appropriate as well ( so Belladonna would be a potent symbol). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violentilla Posted August 30, 2007 Report Share Posted August 30, 2007 Did you make the (very attractive) garland of a particularly auspicious plant? Mandrake and Hellebore spring to mind of course, but "anythingge that dothe stupifye" would be in the frame according to Cornelius Agrippa, all dark coloured fruits are deemed appropriate as well ( so Belladonna would be a potent symbol). No, we didn't. can you paste the info you've seen? If possible, I will incorporate it next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted August 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 Glad to be of service: firstly here is a good ,small essay on Comfrey (Symhytum) explaining Saturnine properties, "deeply rooted in a shady place" is a particularly apt summary: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/comfrey.html Though oddly enough as the "travellers herb" Mercurius is also an influence, nevertheless the essay gives an idea of the influence of Saturn. Scroll down to Hemlock and Henbane here: http://www.med.yale.edu/library/historical/culpeper/g.htm for an annotated commentary on Culpepper. Grieve regarding Henbane alone: http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/h/henban23.html Perseus Tufts is playing up again so I will give a text link when the Berlin server decides to co-operate. A piece on the "Doctrine of Signatures" , which gives some Saturnian notes: http://www.holysmoke.org/wb/wb0081.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violentilla Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 These all appear to be, and correct me if I'm wrong, planetary influences of the herbs mentioned, which was something assigned far later in history than I am really interested in. When they say an herb is Saturnine, they mean it is under the influence of the planet Saturn, which is named for the god of course, but I'm not sure I would necessarily use it in a Saturnalia celebration. I will think about it though. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted August 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 As presented in the live links these are the later period accreditations, hence my impatience with the Perseus server for the Cornelius Agrippa commentary which is more "of the period". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violentilla Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 As presented in the live links these are the later period accreditations, hence my impatience with the Perseus server for the Cornelius Agrippa commentary which is more "of the period". Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa was an occult writer in the Middle Ages, is that who you mean? If so, I still find him to be a later source than I look for to base my rituals on, but I would still like to see the reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted August 31, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 As presented in the live links these are the later period accreditations, hence my impatience with the Perseus server for the Cornelius Agrippa commentary which is more "of the period". Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa was an occult writer in the Middle Ages, is that who you mean? If so, I still find him to be a later source than I look for to base my rituals on, but I would still like to see the reference. Yes indeed , but the critical passage I am looking for is a cross reference to Pliny (The Elder).I am sorry to be so slow in obliging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 ....tomorrow it starts again...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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