Anglo Saxon place names

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

Caldrail, how much of England did Danelaw cover? I imagine it must have consisted mostly of the parts of the Island facing the Continent.

Off topic a little, but I'm guessing that Englismen with -son or -sen as surname endings might possibly be descended from these Danes, like Johnson, Andersen, etc.

[Andrew Dalby]

Caldrail, how much of England did Danelaw cover? I imagine it must have consisted mostly of the parts of the Island facing the Continent.

Off topic a little, but I'm guessing that Englismen with -son or -sen as surname endings might possibly be descended from these Danes, like Johnson, Andersen, etc.

 

Here am I chipping in -- Caldrail will probably answer better -- the Danelaw was not facing the continent but facing the North Sea. It covered East Anglia, the East Midlands, Yorkshire and North East England. How far north into Scotland I don't know. In fact it took in most of the area originally conquered by the Angles -- which is maybe why, although the Angles had been significant enough to give their name to the whole country, it was the West Saxon kingdom that eventually took the jackpot. The West Saxons, thanks to Alfred mainly, had just managed to survive the Viking onslaught.

 

But then there was Ethelred the Unready and Canute -- that's part two ...

 

Names in -sen don't occur (I think) among traditional English names -- they would belong to people who have migrated from Scandinavia pretty recently. Surnames in -son are very common in England, however.

 

But the thing is, surnames weren't in use at all at the period we're talking about, so it would be complicated to use them to show Viking origin directly. What do others think about that?

[caldrail]

But the thing is, surnames weren't in use at all at the period we're talking about, so it would be complicated to use them to show Viking origin directly. What do others think about that?

 

Vikings identified themselves as the son of their father sometimes, but nordic naming isn't something I have any information about.

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

I agree with Caldrail. Naming themselves as -son after their fathers does not seem to have been a Saxon tradition, even to this day among Saxons from Germany. That is why I assumed it was a Scandinavian tradition (Lief Ericsson readily comes to mind) carried on in England by people of Norse descent.

Another off the topic digression - some historians are convinced that England would never have become the great seafaring nation that it did if it weren't for the substantial sprinkling of Nordic blood among its inhabitants. Seems to make sense. After all Romano-Celts and Anglo-Saxons, the people on the Island before the Norse incursions, were basically land- lubbers.

What do fellow forum-members think of that?

[Western]

The Danelaw (Danelagh) was the name given in the 9th and 10th centuries to parts of England were the laws of the Danes held sway over those of the Anglo-Saxons. These laws were enforced in the Kingdoms of Northumbria, East Anglia, and in the lands of the Five Boroughs of Leicester, Nottingham, Derby, Stamford and Lincoln. Ironically the Danelaw and especially York became a target for Viking raiders, while ongoing war with Anglo-Saxon Wessex and Mercia sapped the strength of the Danelaw. The Danelaw was gradually eroded by Anglo-Saxon raids and Edward the Elder incorporated the Danelaw into his newfound Kingdom of England after the northern kings submitting to Edward in return for protection. However the Danes never gave up their ambitions to control England and from 1016 to 1035 the whole of England was ruled by King Canute. In 1066 two rival Viking factions invaded England, one under Harald Hardrada took York but was defeated at the Battle of Stamford Bridge, while the other William of Normandy (The Conqueror) and the Normans would defeat the Anglo-Saxon armies at the Battle of Hastings and change the history of Britain and the world.

 

The influence of Scandinavian settlement can still be seen in the North of England and the East Midlands, were place names endings such as-by, thorpe, and toft are commonest in the area covered by the Danelaw in the north and east of England north of Watling Street. Also in this area, church becomes kirk and ditch becomes dike. Old Norse and Old English were still mutually comprehensible and the mixed language of the Danelaw caused the incorporation of many Norse words into the English language, including the word law itself, as well as the third person plural pronouns they, them and their. Many Old Norse words still survive today in the dialects of Northeastern England.

[caldrail]

I agree with Caldrail. Naming themselves as -son after their fathers does not seem to have been a Saxon tradition, even to this day among Saxons from Germany. That is why I assumed it was a Scandinavian tradition (Lief Ericsson readily comes to mind) carried on in England by people of Norse descent.

Another off the topic digression - some historians are convinced that England would never have become the great seafaring nation that it did if it weren't for the substantial sprinkling of Nordic blood among its inhabitants. Seems to make sense. After all Romano-Celts and Anglo-Saxons, the people on the Island before the Norse incursions, were basically land- lubbers.

What do fellow forum-members think of that?

 

Inspired by the Vikings eh? No, I don't think so. islanders tend to become sailors at some point. We know however that Alfred the Great had a large navy to fend off pirates and raiders, so to some extent the possibility of viking incursions meant that the british had to become sailors. The same thing happened for the romans under threat from Carthage.

 

In the words of George Clooney (Three Kings) "What is most important in life?..... Necessity."

[longbow]

Interesting topic,we call Streams Burns up here and we call a Wood a Deen.I know Burn is a saxon word but i have no idea were Deen comes from,any ideas?

My Surname is derived from the Norse word 'Stoni' meaning 'Big' ,my surname is popular in the North east of England but you dont get it anywere else in the country.

The Danelaw.

 

This is Hart Deen,were i learnt how to shoot Bows.

 

L

[caldrail]

Whats interesting is how often people today are living in the same area as their ancestors dating way back. There was a welshman was was discovered to be a descendant of some ancient remains in grave nearby a couple of years ago.

 

I like the map of Danelaw. Dauntsey - the example I used above - is roughly at the top of the 'h' in Farnham. There's a large hill to the southeast of Dauntsey (The slope of which is called Dauntsey Bank, famous as the site of the first locomotive to break the 100mph barrier) which has a plethora of medieval names and one disoluted monastery, now only some crumbing stones. For those who want to find it, RAF Lyneham Airbase is on top of the hill.

 

The point is that if Dauntsey means Isle of the Danes, then they were living well south of Danelaw. What I don't know is whether they were living on the Lyneham hill or on a smaller patch of dry land in the marshy lowlands northwest.

 

Looking at the map, I realise that Anglia (the root of England) doesn't actually cover what we know regard as England. Am I wrong, or is the north referred to as Umbria? Does anyone know the root of that name?

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

Many Old Norse words still survive today in the dialects of Northeastern England.

Can you give us some examples Western?

Sorry to sound so demanding but I'm really getting off on this fascinating topic and thirsting for more knowledge.

Thx

[longbow]

Many Old Norse words still survive today in the dialects of Northeastern England.

Can you give us some examples Western?

Sorry to sound so demanding but I'm really getting off on this fascinating topic and thirsting for more knowledge.

Thx

 

We say'Aye' for yes and 'Howay' for come on (lets go),Gan means 'Go' etc..I'm not sure if there old Norse words or just the region dialect.we call small children 'berns' that's a Norse word,Arse! comes from the word Ars,meaning rump/backside .Dale comes from the word Dalur,which is a Valley.Flags (flagstones) comes from the Norse Flaga,Reckon is from Reikna meaning to ponder/think,Acre comes from Akr,an Acre is 4800 square yds of land.

There's many,many more.....

[longbow]

The point is that if Dauntsey means Isle of the Danes, then they were living well south of Danelaw. What I don't know is whether they were living on the Lyneham hill or on a smaller patch of dry land in the marshy lowlands northwest.

 

The name will probably come from before the Danelaw existed.There was Danish settlemets all over Britain Hundreds of years before the Danelaw came about.Same goes for the Saxon's/Angles/Jutes who came over,there was no sudden urge to migrate and invade it happened over hundreds of years.

Edited April 7, 2007 by longbow

[Andrew Dalby]

Looking at the map, I realise that Anglia (the root of England) doesn't actually cover what we know regard as England. Am I wrong, or is the north referred to as Umbria? Does anyone know the root of that name?

The Angles, I understand, were the ones who settled Mercia, East Anglia and Northumbria -- quite a large swathe of England in total. But the Danelaw came along and overlaid much of that.

 

Northumbria was the "kingdom north of the Humber". But that only takes your question one stage back; I don't know the origin of the name "Humber" for the big estuary. According to my map, the Romans had a different name for it (Abus flumen).

[caldrail]

The point is that if Dauntsey means Isle of the Danes, then they were living well south of Danelaw. What I don't know is whether they were living on the Lyneham hill or on a smaller patch of dry land in the marshy lowlands northwest.

 

The name will probably come from before the Danelaw existed.There was Danish settlemets all over Britain Hundreds of years before the Danelaw came about.Same goes for the Saxon's/Angles/Jutes who came over,there was no sudden urge to migrate and invade it happened over hundreds of years.

 

Yes, that would make sense. Studying the ordnance survey map of that hill there are plenty of anglo-saxon names surviving and its clear they had danish neighbours at one point. Goatacre is medieval, but Tockenham and Lyneham are obviously saxon. Nearby Littlecott is too. Bradenstoke (where the medieval abbey stood) isn't a name I recognise. Does the suffix Stoke mean anything to anyone?

[sonic]

Who opened this can of worms? Oh well....

 

Northumbria was the 'Kingdom North of the Humber', as Andrew says, but no-one knows the meaning of the word 'Humber'; it is pre Roman and the meaning has long been lost (the same goes for 'Thames').

 

Also, when the Danelaw was set up, the Danes did not take control of any part of Scotland. In fact, there was part of Northumbria that escaped Viking control, and was sandwiched between the Danelaw and Scotland.

 

The word 'shire' comes from Old English 'scir' (pronounced, er, 'shire') meaning 'district', therefore Yorkshire means 'district administered from York', Lancashire means 'District administered from Lancaster' etc.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think Dauntsey means 'Isle of the Danes'. It was recorded as 'Dometesig' in the year 850, and seems to mean 'Island of a man named Domgeat' (an Old English personal name).

 

As to the fact that many words used in the North of England derive from Viking words, they do - but so do many 'common' words, such as 'egg', 'window' (Wind-eye) and 'skirt'.

 

In the Viking languages there was a tendency to change the soft 'sh' sound to a harder 'sk' sound. Therefore, 'shirt' and 'skirt' originally meant the same thing. Only later has there been the divide into two separate items of clothing.

 

Incidentally, the same happened to place names: 'Shipton' in the south of England has the same meaning as 'Skipton' in the north of England. Both have the same meaning; 'Sheep Farm'.

 

The situation is worse in Wales, where often there is the name given in English, for example 'Swansea' and a different name in Welsh, 'Abertawe'. 'Swansea' means 'Sweyn's Isle', named after a viking who set up base there (I think), whereas 'Abertawe' means '(settlement at ) the Mouth (Aber) of the River Tawe'. Compare Abergavenny and many others!

 

By the way, the county of 'Cumbria' (earlier 'Cumberland') in the North of England mean 'Lands of the 'Cumbrogi' or 'Welsh'. Compare this to the modern name given to Wales by the Welsh: 'Cymry'. The area was one of the last to be conquered by the English from the Celts. Oh, and 'Welsh' is the Old English for 'foreigner' or 'slave'. It's no wonder the Welsh aren't too keen on the English!

 

For anybody really interested, there are many handbooks (usually classed as 'Dictionaries') of English place names. Try typing 'Dictionary of English place names' into Amazon, or any other bookseller list, and you usually get quite a few options.

 

For those of you really interested, 'Signposts to the Past' by Margaret Gelling is a good starting point.

 

Sorry this is so long, but you took me back a few years: I did an essay on place names for my Ancient History degree. Oh dear, it's all coming back to me now! Help......

[The Augusta]

Just to chip in with the posts regarding surnames. As Andrew pointed out, surnames were not used in England before the mediaeval period - at around the mid to late 14th century, actually - unless you were of the very high aristocracy/gentry, in which case your surname would tend to reflect a placename. Johannes de Stoke or some such. Surnames thus ending in -son, i.e. Wilson, Thomson etc. have absolutely nothing to do with Viking heritage at all - they are far too late for this. They literally mean 'son of William (Will)' and 'son of Thomas (Tom)'. This is the bracket of surnames known to genealogists as patronymics, and form one of the four main categories of surnames in England, the others being: nicknames, e.g. John Short, John Black; placenames, e.g. John Ashton, John Warburton; and surnames reflecting occupations, i.e. John Smith, John Fletcher.

 

Hope that's helped a bit.