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The meaning of 'No'

caldrail

Entry posted by caldrail

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The French said No. The Dutch said No. Having rendered further progress on the Treaty of Lisbon illegal, the power brokers behind it then asked the Irish. The Irish said No. So the power brokers behind it are now telling us we must find a way around the obstacle.

 

Pardon?

 

Whats the point of a vote if its going to be ignored if the sponsors don't like it? The people of three countries have stated their wish to halt further european integration under the terms given.

 

It hasn't gone unnoticed by me just how much of traditional english life has been dismantled already, and that by a socialist government that has already declared it will continue to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon. A treaty that gives Brussels unprecedented powers over its contituent nations.

 

We cast a critical eye on events in places like Zimbabwe thinking it could never happen here, yet something uncomfortably similar is growing under our noses. I've warned about this sort of thing in the past. If you don't defend your freedoms someone will take them away sooner or later. A government that doesn't listen - at all - is a tyranny. Its easy to say that such views are merely paranoia. Perhaps, but its also true that tyrannical governments thrive where people dismiss their intentions as harmless.

 

It may well be that many things that have occured in Britain are nothing more than coincidence, but I can't help seeing some sort of gameplan here. British nationalism is well known - its an obstacle - so lets dilute it. We'll give Wales and Scotland the local government they want. We'll import large numbers of immigrant workers. We'll stop teaching 'proper' history in our schools. We'll use fears over climate change. We'll use fears over terrorism. We'll make the british people dependent on government aid. We'll encourage the british people to see themselves as european.

 

There are men and women out there planning our futures. The only problem is, they're not the ones we voted into office. It would be a grim irony if the sacrifices made by our forebears to fight for freedom in Europe were pushed aside and a new reich put in place.

 

Good News of the Week

The crew of the space shuttle Discovery have been told that the floating debris and an unexplained bump are not dangerous. One certainly hopes so.

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Silentium

Leaving aside all the other comments, which made me smile, in a good way, all I am going to say is that such an ambitious transnational treaty is not something the uneducated masses can vote on, with the sole exception of Switzerland, the only country in the world where direct democracy has ever worked. Also, I find quite diverting and amusing the fact that Ireland is one of the countries (if not THE country) who benefited most from EU membership.

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caldrail
such an ambitious transnational treaty is not something the uneducated masses can vote on

Thats exactly the point. The people building this new superstate aren't interested in the welfare of the masses involved. They're just plebs. The 'bread and circuses' syndrome has already taken root in britain, where we see the government sponsoring public entertainment and going to such great lengths to bankrupt the country staging the olympics. Europe has functioned on a similar principle to the roman repubic - power is temporary, shared, and by consent. We now seem to be approaching a 'triumvirate' stage, where influential people are seeking personal power on a larger scale.

 

You can smile if you wish - I hope you're right. The greatest disadvantage to national size and strength is that it provides a strong base for those who wish to exploit. Six million jews can't be wrong, and French/German ambition has always been for a european empire.

 

Switzerland, the only country in the world where direct democracy has ever worked.

Democracy is not a fully defined 'thing'. Its not that a country is either democratic or not. Its not a black or white issue, its shades of grey. How democratic is a country? Switzerland is a rarity but they'd be reasonably happy whatever their politics - its their mindset, their way of life, its just how switzerland is. The british are more bolshy and stubborn, quietly and sometimes intensely patriotic, and certainly less amenable to USofE. Its something much deeper in our psyche. Being an island, having fought off continental aggression, and so forth. Nonetheless, once the USofE is a reality, what can stop its president from personal ambition? At the moment, an individual leader who gets ideas above his station is held back by the others. Once he is in sole charge, that check is gone. People use to think Hitler was an ok guy.

 

Also, I find quite diverting and amusing the fact that Ireland is one of the countries (if not THE country) who benefited most from EU membership.

Yes. EU membership. Part of a co-operative group. But they don't want to lose their own self determination. They want to be irish. So they said No.

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Maladict

I believe in the case of the French and Dutch referenda it turned out less than 1% of the voters read the document they were voting on. As dreadful as it may sound, some decisions are best left to politicians.

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caldrail

If you let politicians make 'important' decisions, just wait and see how many decisions become 'important'. In no way whatsoever do you let a politician make decisions without accountability. Thats the whole point of democracy. The people have a part (at whatever level) in the decision making process. It seems the europeans are more amenable to dictatorial government. I certainly don't want some arrogant idiot in London telling me my country doesn't exist anymore, that would I please carry an ID card at all times, and could I explain why I'm so unhappy about our glorious leader.

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Maladict
If you let politicians make 'important' decisions, just wait and see how many decisions become 'important'. In no way whatsoever do you let a politician make decisions without accountability. Thats the whole point of democracy. The people have a part (at whatever level) in the decision making process.

 

The politicians, who were largely in favour of the treaty, already had the mandate of the people.

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caldrail

But thats just it. Politicians loved the Treaty of Lisbon because it gave them a higher level of power of attain, a new arena, not to mention whatever promises, deals, or agreements had been made behind closed doors - you can't tell me that politicians don't do that.

 

The people however are nationalistic. We like being whatever nationality we are, and after all the struggles of the past to achieve the peace we have in europe, why should we be willing to sit there with fingers in our ears, eyes closed, while politicians take away our national identity?

 

Sorry, I just can't accept it. And if giovernments have a mandate from the people, why was it necessary to hold a referendum at all? I notice that the promised referendum in britain is being swept under the carpet and forgotten. Someone wants me to forget I'm british. Sorry, no, no politician has the right to do that unless he asks me for my permission. Thats my my view on it.

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Maladict
But thats just it. Politicians loved the Treaty of Lisbon because it gave them a higher level of power of attain, a new arena, not to mention whatever promises, deals, or agreements had been made behind closed doors - you can't tell me that politicians don't do that.

 

The people however are nationalistic. We like being whatever nationality we are, and after all the struggles of the past to achieve the peace we have in europe, why should we be willing to sit there with fingers in our ears, eyes closed, while politicians take away our national identity?

 

Sorry, I just can't accept it. And if giovernments have a mandate from the people, why was it necessary to hold a referendum at all? I notice that the promised referendum in britain is being swept under the carpet and forgotten. Someone wants me to forget I'm british. Sorry, no, no politician has the right to do that unless he asks me for my permission. Thats my my view on it.

 

It wasn't necessary. I guess some governments figured it would be a nice gesture, only to have it blow up in their face. But the fact remains that the people had little or no idea what they were voting on, and voted out of a general dissatisfaction and hesitation regarding the EU as a whole. A valid concern, but not the issue at hand.

I understand your objections, and I share a lot of them, but there will be no going back on this one.

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Silentium
Thats exactly the point. The people building this new superstate aren't interested in the welfare of the masses involved. They're just plebs. The 'bread and circuses' syndrome has already taken root in britain, where we see the government sponsoring public entertainment and going to such great lengths to bankrupt the country staging the olympics.

I disagree, the opportunities are manifold, and so the info (publications, website, tv), it's just that the average citizen can't be bothered to look for them and then complains the EU is not doing enough. Take a look at europa.eu, you will see that in terms of welfare there is A LOT Europe is doing, problem is very little is known about these interventions. Just to mention one area of intervention (education):

 

http://www.wmin.ac.uk/page-15714

 

http://www.helsinki.fi/news/archive/3-2008/19-10-04-14.html

 

Oh, and this is a link from University College Cork (Arts, Celtic Studies, Social Science)

 

http://www.ucc.ie/en/CollegesandDepartment...eanUnionFunding

 

apparently you can still be very very Irish and benefit from EU funds at the same time.

 

You can smile if you wish - I hope you're right. The greatest disadvantage to national size and strength is that it provides a strong base for those who wish to exploit. Six million jews can't be wrong, and French/German ambition has always been for a european empire.

I am tempted to answer with a line from Blackadder but I won't :P.

 

I thought it would be interesting to quote a passage from the wiki entry for

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caldrail

Pro-european arguments carry no weight with me I'm afraid. I've told you what my nationalism is - there's no point questioning or attempting to redefine it. All those opinions about europe being a vehicle for national identity aren't going to matter one jot. You know the saying - power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Why do you think people say that? Because thats how people are. The EU is known to be fundamentally corrupt in its business dealings and just because you pwersonally haven't encountered anything you resent, that doesn't mean the EU is innocent of all charges. The fact is the EU is offering nothing more than we already have. All its doing is generating a new empire without the consent of its new citizens. It wants its own leader, its own army, all the structures of nationhood. Once they've achieved that, how will they secure the loyalty of their citizens? By reducing their national identity, or making it something quaint and containable. Our current government is pro-Lisbon Treaty and notice the lengths they've gone to to erode public opinion. On the news last night I saw a mention that the Treaty of Lisbon is to be revived, despite three negative votes for an treaty that requires full agreement from all concerned. These people aren't interested in what we think. They just don't care. They want a european empire because it represents power and status, something larger they can control. Some want their name in the history books for creating it, some want to be boss, others simply want our cash. What they don't want is anyone stopping them.

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