caldrail
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Posts posted by caldrail
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Yes. Roman society functioned on wealth as a symbol of status. In a very competitive atmosphere this means that people will tend to make money or take financial advantage at any moment. We see this everywhere. Extortionate landlords, caveat emptor, etc. The military would have been no better.
I was always struck by a letter from one roman to another, telling him that he shouldn't argue with the legionary who stole his donkey.
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Hm, however, Cadrail, even with all the defects of the Roman Army, in spite of all the battles that they lost, they almost always won the war in the end. In the end, the Samnites, the Carthaginians, the Greeks, the Macedonians, the Gauls, the Celts all ended under Roman Power, and not the other way around. If they really are that poor, then how then did they create an empire that spans the entire Mediterranean, and hold it for five centuries before succumbing? Their army would have to exceptional to create the empire, and make the empire last that long.
Sure, there are a lot of defeats, but it is not fair to mention those defeats without mentioning all the victories they had. If you make a list of all the battles that the Romans won, and all their defeats, did they have more defeats than victories? And how about decisive battles? How many decisive defeats did the Romans suffer, as opposed to decisive victories?
Pardon me, but your posts would make it seem that the Roman Army is a pathetic and weak collection of rabble that couldn't chew and spit gum at the same time. It's one thing to overestimate them, but another to severely underestimate them.
The roman army did not create the empire. They won enough victories to ensure that threats were eliminated where possible but the expansion was political as well as as military. It was mercantile as well violent.
Remember that for much of their reign the romans were at peace. A soldier could sign on, serve 25 years, and receive excellent health care whilst never seeing combat. Soldiers need to be kept busy or else you get trouble. Make no mistake, once you've trained a man to hardship and killing he needs something to do. All armies face this problem. A pathetic and weak collection of rabble that couldn't chew and spit gum at the same time? That describes every army that ever existed at one time or another. What makes an army cohesive and able is superior leadership, training, and esprit-de-corps. To a large extent the romans had that. Their centurions were professional career officers who were under no requirement to retire at all. That meant there was a body of experienced leaders who maintained the standards of legion behaviour. Unfortunately all too many of these men were corrupt, something the romans were never able to eradicate. It was endemic to their society and this affected the nature of the men under their command.
My point is not that the roman legions were poor. My point was that they were sometimes poor. That they did rebel, that they did lose a few battles, that they were not the efficient steamroller we like to believe. The romans liked to plug their victories loud and proud. Well so would we in their place. How often do we celebrate the battle of britain? That means we read of soldiers conquering right left and center. To some extent thats exactly what they did. They were far better organised than their enemies (or victims) and that gave them a huge advantage. An even bigger advantage, literally, is that the roman recruitment pool became so large that replacing losses was far easier than for others. The romans did take losses. The early battles of a campaign were often disasters until a better general was found than the amateur political appointee who had vaingloriously led them to embarrasement.
Look closer. Try to see the legionary as an individual rather than a cog in a ruthlessly effiecient killing machine. A man of humble birth has volunteered and found acceptable by the legions. He is taught drill, weaponry, and labouring. He must endure the privations of route marches and camps, in all weathers. He is expected to draw a sword and kill on command. He is cheated of his pay by his more experienced colleagues. Some he must use to bribe a centurion or be liable for some of the more undesirable fatigues. The rest he will spend on whores and booze when he gets the chance. If he is caught sleeping on guard, he faces terrible punishment. If he and his colleagues show cowardice, he may be called upon to beat a friend to death. This was a harsh regime designed to produce killers. It did.
However as I've said life in the legions wasn't always so grim. Duties were variable and assigned on a rota (sestercii allowing).
Would I severely underestimate them? No. But I would take careful note of who their commander was and the strategy he displayed.
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Caldrail is indeed interested. Cicero shows his daring and oratory. Chrysonogus shows what a chump he was to invite scandal. Sulla shows his true colours.
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I'd make that "never let Gibbon be your guide".
His literary achievement and the grand scope of his works are not in doubt, but his bigotry against Christianity really has to go. It's no wonder he loves a character like Julian, and therefore should not be taken as anything approaching an objective view. Gibbon never really has one.
Christianity has a habit of claiming the moral high ground. Sadly it doesn't deserve it. For all the good works there's just as much sin committed in its name, no different from any other religion. One thing to bear in mind is that Gibbon lived at a time when christianity had a firm hold on society. I've never read Gibbon so I can't say whether I agree with him or not but for him to suggest that christianity was guilty is something of a brave step and I don't think we can easily discount his opinions. At a guess I would suggest that he's trying to find a simple and elegant solution to that historical puzzle and the nearest answer he can find is the church. Christianity influenced the fall of rome but I can't see it as being responsible for it.
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One thing we admire about roman buildings is the technique of heating them. By allowing hot air to circulate below the floor and up through channels in the wall it means a room can be very comfrotably warm indeed. However it occurs to me that heating an entire villa, some of which were of a considerable size and complexity, is almost impossible. Archaeology bears this out, because a fire large enough to heat the entire home would have required an enormous furnace - and that furnace required fuel. Thats a lot of timber put aside to burn. I've never read anything to suggest the romans engaged in any large scale deforestation except where warfare was concerned, when the local damage is only for the duration of hostilities.
So - Only a portion of the house is heated during winter. In britain this must have impacted on family life, but what about household slaves? Were they condemned to freezing conditions in the slave quarters? Perhaps not, but they wouldn't have a good time of it. Did this mean that life for a wealthy family was any different for a family in italy, or north africa? On the one hand they would have lived as romans did everywhere but surely this retreat to warm sections of the house meant that their lives were restricted from their normal way during cold periods?
Socialising is an important side effect. Of course wintery weather makes it less likely you'd receive visitors but they're not going to think much of your hospitality if they're put up in palatial but freezing bedchambers!
I wonder if family life (particularly in britain or northern europe) became much closer in winter. It had to.
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As far as I'm aware she was real. Herbalists weren't unusual back then and most would have learned something of poisons - they needed to otherwise they'd killoff their customers!
The impression I get is that the romans didn't do much to progress the science of poisoning. They relied on Aconite, henlock, and arsenic (actually an arsenic oxide which you could build an immunity to with regular small doses. We read of romans doing that. Agrippina the younger was one). Cyanide is a bit exotic for roman tastes. I'm not saying it wasn't used, just that it wasn't commonly employed.
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Important point - Marcellus was an ambitious young chap wasn't he? Was augustus only pretending to support his cause? You know, make him feel like he's getting somewhere? Or was augustus genuinely grooming him for success? I wonder if marcellus was going to get pulled off his high horse at some point (or even executed if augustus viewed him as too much of a threat).
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A written constitution may have helped if it had existed long before. The problem was that Sulla had no intention of falling in with roman custom. He'd already decided to act. The difference a constitution would have made is that Sulla would have found it harder to get away with it. Whereas he could hide his actions behind ambiguous expectations and a policy of 'doing the right thing', against a solid legal precedent he would have acted in an overtly criminal manner. He saw a gap and went for it basically.
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We will never know all the poisons the romans used. Caligula's 'Columbinum' for instance was certainly effective (having been tested on the unfortunate gladiator columbus) but it was his own formula. What on earth was in it?
I also wonder if some deaths attributed to poison were nothing more than heart attacks brought on by all the reasons we get lectured about today?
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Sulla was no more reprehensible than any other leading Roman of the time.
How many leading Romans of Sulla's time--or any time leading up to Sulla--engaged in the systematic, wholesale slaughter of whole political classes? The notion that Sulla was just an "ordinary person, full of flaws" strains credulity, and the reasoning vividly demonstrates who the real beneficiary of that "judge not" nonsense is--the most wicked and the most corrupt. When Sulla retired, he was a debauched, bitter, evil old man. Moral relativism would only have warmed his black, rotten heart.
Well I never regarded him as an ordinary person. I agree, such people do not do sulla-esque things. Corrupt? Of course, most romans were. Thats how their society functioned. The same behaviour is everywhere today, its just that the modern west has more laws and willingness to combat such things. You seem very anti-sulla. Ok. To me he's symptomatic of roman ambition and greed, but some of the things I've read give him a more rounded personality than Montgomery Burns. Sulla wanted to be top dog and cleaned house to suit himself. I see that sort of thing going in business around me.
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Sulla was no more reprehensible than any other leading roman of the time. Wealth and status were the same thing in roman eyes thus we see greedy behaviour everywhere. Now the quote from plutarch interests me because sulla did no more than keep his former employee at arms length. He was not punished? Was it not a crime to steal a mans property in such a way? That guy had become an embarrasement to sulla by making himself too obvious (there is a possibility that he made a genuine mistake and paid the price for it, but it doesn't look good does it?). Whatever the reason, sulla brushed him aside and carried on regardless with his reforms. Now to me that means sulla had clear objectives - he knew what he wanted to achieve. No wishy-washy do-gooder then. Sulla also needed to maintain distance from any political scandal. This all brings me back to my former opinion. Sulla wanted to remould rome to his ideal and didn't care too much who got hurt in the process. And if he made a few sestercii on the way - so much the better. That is typically roman and fully understandable. Their society was competitive, more cutthroat than ours. In actual fact Phil I can see sulla as being just a tad two-faced.
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Interesting. Poison seems to be an important factor in the ancient world. I understand that the Sardinians astonished the romans with their liberal use of it. Apparently when dad got too old to work the farm his kids asked him to do the decent thing.
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Interesting, but I can't see sulla in that light. However much he may have wished to save rome he certainly made no effort to prevent personal gain from his followers. He knew the proscriptions were often theft with menaces. By the time he retired, Sulla saw no reason to change anything - he'd already done what he set out to achieve. Further, if he regretted his decision then retiring makes no sense. Surely he would have stayed in politics and attempted to control the damage as it were?
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Western warfare follows two finite paths. The romanic/greek style of rigid formations, or the horde style of western barbarians who shout very loudly and attack with complete abandon.
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Actually, technically it is better to eat something more closely related to you, it is easier on digestion. I'll spare the biological lecture. 
Not according to new guinea tribesmen, who do occaisionally suffer from strange maladies passed on from human consumption.
For a civilization such as the Romans, with the different foods they were able to obtain, it is hard to see them accepting cannibalism.Agreed. The romans thought that a very barbaric practice, hence the initial horrified suspicion about christians. Then again, individual people do sometimes behave amorally and unethically without regard to accepted custom. In secret it must be said, but there's always one or two..
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Didn't julius caesar once face a barrage of pompey's pila? If I remember right (and I might be wrong here) he avoided the lot or took them on his shield, looked thoroughly invincible, and inspired his tired men to charge. Pharsalus?
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Correct. A false impression because the pagan romans misunderstood the symbolism. The christians were accused of eating babies too.
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Anyone who recieved the corona civica recieved a great honor. They were required to wear the crown when appearing in public, or at public events. (which makes me wonder how they kept the crown fresh, still. Perhaps it gave them privilage to wear *a* oak leaf crown, and they kept making or were provided with fresh ones.)
They would have been given one as part of the military ceremony, and allowed to wear another thereafter as described. In some cases, the wreath might have been artificial?
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Julian did not like christianity. Although it had once been an amorphous group of cultists it had by then become a rival government. Not one that sought political power, but controlled the public nonetheless. Unlike Constantine, who needed this cohesion to repair the damage of his civil war, Julian regarded this as an undesirable influence over his realm, paricularly since he was a confirmed pagan and disliked christian beliefs. I wonder also if Julian had in mind to be remembered as a god like emperors of old - impossible under christian beliefs. Also you should remember that christianity was not then a charitable institution. I've mentioned this before, but a fourth century roman stated that - "Make me a bishop of Rome and I'll be a christian tomorrow". He said this because the early bishops were wealthy - and in typical roman fashion - they were wealthy by extracting cash from their parishioners. I don't know if Julian wanted that cash for himself or if he thought it was impious for these holy men to commit ursury, but I don't think the bishops wealth endeared them to Julian.
Having said all this, there is always the possibility that an unrecorded personal event occurred that made Julian despise christianity.
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Ironically enough, Keaveney's biography, whilst being an unashamed apology for Sulla all the way through, finally sums it all up in the epilogue, when the author says that Sulla 'was one of the great failures of Roman history'. I suppose we can reach no other conclusion as his reforms were swept away within a generation, but the legacy he left behind for others to emulate his coup d'etat, was yet another blow to the ailing Republic he was trying to save. God forgive me - I almost feel sorry for the man! Why is it that the flawed men of history are always the most interesting?
In sulla's case his reforms weren't popular. They were foisted on rome and in any case a lot of people fell by the wayside as a result. There's always bad feeling in these cases. On the other hand, once sulla retired he was no longer in a position to affect changes or protect himself politically apart from influence with former followers. That indicates to me he felt safe. That means his opposition was silent or eradicated. Sulla therefore must have shown typical roman ruthlessness. Also he must have felt that he needed do no more - his work was complete. I don't know if sulla's actions created a precedent or inspired others to do likewise, but he certainly brushed aside roman custom. That, I think, was his mistake. In no small way I think sulla tipped the balance too far - I really do think he showed others how weak the republic really was at that time.
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Western warfare is derived from early tribal practises of europe and in particular greek or celtic influence. Eastern style is far more influenced by cavalry and archers, again typical of the early peoples who inhabited the lands.
There was some greek influence in eastern lands due to the campaigns of alexander the great, but I don't see any major change in eastern style warfare.
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The trajectory for a pilum would be flatter than an olympic javelin. They weren't throwing them for distance, they were throwing them to hurt people or disarm them. Now its true the romans relied on the mass effect of dozens if not hundreds of these things in the air. However, a pilum might glance off a shield if it arrives at too steep an angle. Pointless (pun intended!). To penetrate the shield an angle closer to 90 deg was preferable for maximum penetration. (90 deg is of course only possible for tens of feet so an angle of around 30 might be better.
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Its based on my experience of human beings, most of whom aren't what they like to present as their public image. The romans were no diffeent.
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I am going to be brave and announce that I have always been fascinated by Lucius Cornelius Sulla since the day I first picked up Plutarch. But the more I read about him the more my bafflement grows. I just don't know what to make of the man. Was he an unconstituional tyrant, or was he, as Keaveney states in the subtitle of his biography, 'The Last Republican'? I am reading this book at the moment as it has just been published in a second edition and whilst it is something of a favourable account with apologies all over the place, Keaveney does admit that the Proscriptions were a massive blot on an otherwise mainly consitutional career - the march on Rome notwithstanding! My reading of Sulla so far is that he definitely used harsh measures, but he was genuine in his belief that the ailing Republic needed those measures. Why did he retire from the Dictatorship? Was he genuine in this - i.e. he had restored the powers of the Senate and could now bow out as a dutiful citizen should? Or did he retire, as some have suggested, because of some silly prophecy he had when younger?
There are so many questions. Would he have acted the way he did had it not been for the Marians and later the Cinnans? Was his rule a death knell for the Republic as some have suggested? The more I read the less I am sure about this.
I would love to know all your views on Sulla's career and just how great an influence you think he was in the Republic's downfall. I have scoured the old threads to see if there has been a topic devoted purely to Sulla and could not find one. I know he was briefly discussed in the 'downfall of the Republic discussion' but someone there (it may have been MPC, but I can't be sure just from memory) suggested that he deserved his own thread.
First let me say this isn't my specialist period so please forgive any major gaffes, but to me Sulla comes across as someone with genuine desires to put Rome 'back on track'. His followers of course took ruthless advantage in the proscriptions and I don't think sulla made any effort to stop them. Typically roman then... do your own thing and profit from it. What makes me certain he meant well was that he retired gracefully. Romans by and large just didn't do that. He had power - if his integrity wasn't there why give it it away?
Poisons and poisoners
in Romana Humanitas
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Its often been suggested that the romans were prone to lead poisoning. I've always been a bit suspicious of this. True the roman plumbing was composed of lead pipes but the amount of lead picked up is insignificant and in any case, a protective chemical layer tends to form. On the other hand, the use of cooking vessels made of lead has better credibility. This poisoning wouldn't have dropped a roman dead in thirty seconds, more like senile in thirty years. So rather like today, some aspects of roman lifestyles were unhealthy.