Horatius
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Posts posted by Horatius
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Mubarack Saddam Hussein Osama it's a strange name for a US presidential candidate especialy one that was raised in a muslim country and has a crazy priest that hates US
His name makes me remember a scene from the movie Crash when the governor was looking for a black hero and they only got an arab fireman named Hussein.It's hard to believe that he could get elected in an european country, a clear sign of the different way in which europeans and americans define themselves as nations.
We ain't all bigots and knee jerk reactionaries over here sonny.
What, in particular, is bigoted about that statement?
A screed such as this appeals to fear and bigotry,you have to be incredibly naive not to recognize that. If Obama is the nominee you will see a lot of this sort of thing. It's something the Republicans do very well, although they will publicly disavow it. Before it is over Obama will be portrayed as some slathering anti-American Muslim fundamentalist lusting after white women. It doesn't work on everyone but it will constantly be in the background and will sway many white voters.
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Mubarack Saddam Hussein Osama it's a strange name for a US presidential candidate especialy one that was raised in a muslim country and has a crazy priest that hates US
His name makes me remember a scene from the movie Crash when the governor was looking for a black hero and they only got an arab fireman named Hussein.It's hard to believe that he could get elected in an european country, a clear sign of the different way in which europeans and americans define themselves as nations.
We ain't all bigots and knee jerk reactionaries over here sonny.
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I think one thing could be considered here: Europe is indeed indebted to the Arab/islamic world for many things. But, is this because of Islam, or despite Islam? Many areas of the middle east conquered by the muslims in the 7th century already had a scholastic/scientific legacy going back hundreds of years. To say that Islam was responsible for this continuing trend, and subsequent benefits to the West, is a bit like saying Christianity is responsible for many of the industrial and technological advances of the 19th century.
In addition, when the crusades were going on, muslim expansionism was in the mid-point of an extremely aggressive phase in which it happily scythed its way through Christian lands for a thousand years, only to be stopped at the gates of Vienna. Muslim expansionism only stopped once the West gained the technological advantage. I believe this was partly due to a Chinese invention...
I agree with Neil on much of this but I think it should be pointed out that the Crusader sack of 1204 was particularly brutal http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/choniates1.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade. If I remember right even the Pope was outraged http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1204innocent.html. This weakening of the Byzantines and the subsequent European refusal to assist them later against the Muslims is really strange. It's almost as if they perceived Islam as the lesser evil at the time or maybe they just had so much antipathy towards the vestiges of Rome (or Orthodoxy) that they would rather cut off their nose to spite their face. I don't think there is much doubt even a medium sized European army could have saved the Eastern empire. If I remember right the artillery used by the Muslim armies to breach the mighty walls of Constantinople was made in Europe!( I'm wrong here apparently this was an Ottoman invention http://www.muslimheritage.com/topics/defau...m?ArticleID=369 but I'll leave it in because I remember something about European artillery maybe that the Byzantines requested some built but were refused ) How long the East could survive or recover any kind of power is debatable though. Sorry, a bit off topic I know, I think it is an interesting and pivotal part of history though especially since it meant the the final destruction of the Roman empire. Unless of course you see the Ottomans as a continuation of it. It looks awfully complicated to me almost Byzantine lol. In the end I suppose many cultures had a part in preserving the greco-roman heritage (and losing much more of it). Thank god for Arabic numerals though
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Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think the Ottoman's were Arabs at all but were the very people that comprised the Byzantine Empire in Anatolia that converted to Islam. They ruled Arabs, Christians, Jews and many other cultures and ethnic groups. Baghdad had many Christians and was supposedly a great center of culture at that time. I see them more as a Muslim version of the Byzantines because they absorbed a lot of that culture and being in control of Constantinople (and Greece) meant they would have access to documents and learning dating back to Rome itself. The Crusader sack of Constantinople in 1204 is an interesting counterpoint to the Ottoman's conquest in 1453 when Mehmed II declared himself Caesar and made Constantinople the capital of the empire.
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In my opinion, the better question is... what don't governments want to control? Every new uncontested method of control restriction of personal liberty breeds more government dependency. It ensures the status quo as regards the ruling class and preserves their positions of authority and privilege. While there may be some who honestly think they are trying to help people, ultimately I find it impossible to believe that the bureaucratic establishment truly cares about our health as individuals...including what we eat, smoke, drink or otherwise shove into our various bodily orifices.
Don't confuse government which should be the citizens protection against predatory and outright fraudulent practices of corporations. As flawed as they are today we seem to forget the reason the FDA, USDA and similar government agencies exist( hint sinclair lewis). If they become controlled by the very interests they were created to regulate then there is a problem (and there is a problem). Sawdust in your milk? maggots in your beef ? Trichinosis in your pork? don't see that much anymore. I think some peoples ire is misdirected
. If a company could sell you a drink with an ingredient that would kill you in 29 years and get away with it they would. We need more and non political regulation not less. .If you want to sit on your porch with a 4-10 loaded with lead be my guest, just let me fish through on your creek please. -
"brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio" -Horace ( I struggle to be brief and become obscure) Not sure why I like this quote but it has stuck with me since i first read it in grade school.
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I think the Black Plague would have to be up there, maybe at the top for the effect it had on civilization.
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Maybe we could learn something here from the ancients for once.
I learn something from the Ancients every day. But if criticizing the Chinese government is bashing, so be it. The only thing that worries me more than the Beijing government are jihadist Islamic groups (whom I also bash frequently).
Maybe I should have put ironic instead of funny in my first sentence. Destroying American labor unions in the later part of the 20'th century paved the way for this. Our manufacturing base is gone and will never return. China holds our debt and is the darling of the corporations, for now. You won't see Busch or business leaders 'bashing' China. It's guv'mit policy Ursus, get with the program. Bashing Muslims is perfectly acceptable until we find another more fearsome bogyman. Chicoms are old school.
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It's funny how China bashing has become so fashionable to both the right and left wing masses. The great international corporations have certainly made a fortune outsourcing their manufacturing there. Now southern China is starting to resemble the Cleveland-Pittsburgh rust belt as they pick up stakes and move to even cheaper labor in Vietnam,Thailand or Malaysia http://www.economist.com/business/displays...27&fsrc=RSS . Meanwhile the West is increasinly engaged in electronic money shell games and doing each others laundry. A big fuss is made of the romantic notion of a 'Free Tibet' but is the old Tibetan Theocracy really something to be admired or even yearned for by most Tibetans? http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html . The original Olympic Games lasted over a 1000 years and wars and political disputes were suspended for there duration. Maybe we could learn something here from the ancients for once.
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Why is self governance indefensible? My statement said nothing about slavery. In multiple posts throughout this thread, I've stated that slavery is wrong and that the northern states were morally justified in their stance against it. However, I do believe that each state has the fundamental (if not legal) right to declare their own course.I'm not trying to discuss slavery here. I am trying to discuss the right of free people to self government. Lets just get it out of the way, SLAVERY IS BAD. There, I said it, you can imagine big tears pouring from my eyes as I say it if you wish.
That out of the way, I believe that people have the right to self government. So did the Founding Fathers, that's kind of why they revolted against England in the first place. The People have the right to self government, provided that they are willing to fight, and if need be to die, to preserve this right.
Look, you can not talk about the CSA without talking about slavery.That is what they were about that is ALL they were about. Glorifying them as some poor state struggling for their rights is nonsense. I hate to use that tired old example of the Nazis but in this case it is fitting because the CSA was every bit as monstrous. It is illegal today in Germany to display the Nazi flag or espouse Nazi propaganda but it is done enthusiastically in the US even today in regards to the CSA. Moral relativism at its worst. If it didn't influence our society even today I wouldn't care so much but it does in many subtle and insidious ways. Maybe we should focus instead on the good things that the CSA bequeathed to civilization ...oh wait there isn't any. Anyway it is 140 years too late to eradicate the symbols and ideology of the Confederacy. I guess I am not making my point clear but that is just my ineptitude.No JR I don't believe any government has the right to subject their people to enslavement or death, if it does that government is illegitimate.
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In the same manner, I don't by any means discount the concerns of the southern states over the perception that their individual states rights were in danger. Ultimately, I do understand that they had a fundamental human right to secede and establish a self governance that fit their philosophy.
Anyone that wants to read more of these kind of justifications for what should be indefensible in excruciating detail can find much still. Might want to start with the opposition debate to the civil rights act of 1964 or that great statesman Orval Faubus, for modern examples. Like I said the mindset is still alive. The states rights concerns of the South were their fears that slavery would be abolished, that's it. That was also their noble 'philosophy' if you can call it that, this wasn't the second coming of the founding fathers after all. Most of us over a certain age have heard it all before ad nauseum hell, George Wallace received 10 million votes. Pointing out that the Indian wars were genocidal or that there were no black officers in the Federal army is apples and oranges. There were Jews in the Wehrmacht also, so what. The fact is northern society was not based on slavery and over the years actively fought it, slowly and unevenly to be sure but it or racism was not officially condoned. The South was entirely based,dependent and proselytized slavery and racism as a philosophy and way of life. It infected the whole nation. I think to give them any legitimacy whatsoever is absurd.
For an analogy of my own... a slave had the fundamental human right to resist his master, while the master had the legal authority to control and punish his property for any such transgression.Actually it's better than that According to The State v. John Mann. 13 N.C. 263 1829 it was perfectly legal to murder your 'property' This can be used to justify more barbarism I suppose after all it's the law.
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Did the North had the right to change the South thru laws or military action? To establish what is moral and right for others?
Absolutely they had the right and a moral obligation too,there was no moral equivalence at work here.The Constitution was changed to reflect this reality because the Constitution was flawed. These were not ancient peoples who knew no better, this happened a mere 70 years before the Third Reich. Not many romanticizes the Nazis racial theories today or suggest there should have been some kind of peaceful accommodation hoping they would change. Let's not kid ourselves the CSA and the culture behind it was evil, its very Raison d'
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As Lincoln said there was no way the republic could endure the way it was. I see no way the south would have altered their society peacefully, ever. As others have pointed out they were the ones that seceded and started the war precisely to avoid any change. Not far from my house is the grave site of William Sherman the purported father of Total War and the man that 'made Georgia howl ' . He understood like no other that to win the Civil War southern society had to be destroyed completely. Maybe if Lincoln would have lived Reconstruction wouldn't have been such a dismal failure but probably not.
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I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the war itself was fought over slavery. The war was fought over the preservation of the union and that is clear. However, the reason for the secession of the southern states in the first place was state's rights and the predominant state's rights issue was in fact slavery.
Make no mistake, slavery as an economic and cultural system was the root cause of the Civil War. It was the primary cause because it was so fundamentally different than the culture of the North. States Rights was and is just a codeword for the right to keep human beings as slaves or at least a servile group that knows its place. It is unfortunate that such a slave culture was allowed to develop here. I doubt even the Romans were more dependent on their slaves for survival than the American south. What is more unfortunate is there was no educated or respected strata of American slaves, they were simply beasts of burden. Freed and flocking to the northern cities for cheap labor and separate and unequal educational opportunities and confined to ghettos. I am not THAT old (51) but I remember when there were concrete barriers placed so that black neighborhoods had to use only main streets to exit or enter their neighborhoods, being seen driving or walking in a white area would mean instant harassment from the police.Some Alderman wanted to build walls with barbed wire between them ! The great uprisings in the 60's http://www.sharingwitness.org/DetRiots67-12_5Av2.jpg http://prorev.com/MMHST.jpg were a direct legacy of this slave culture. Things are SO much better now that it is easy to forget just how bad they were just 40 years ago. It is really hard for me to be sympathetic or nostalgic for the culture that caused so much turmoil for our country. For whatever reason Lincoln did the right thing.
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LOL I can't believe this is really MPC's birthday,but on the offchance it is best wishes. One of our most erudite posters to be sure. To paraphrase Lord Melbourne 'I wish I were as cocksure of anything as MPC is of everything' .
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This is kind of old news but I seen a reference to it and tracked down the original article. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2939362.stm If this is authentic it seems quite amazing to me. What was it doing in Bulgaria? Anyone have any additional info on this? It looks beautiful. Seems the Mormons have made a big deal of it comparing it to the golden tablets of Joseph Smith but that is all I can find.
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1.Marcus Aurelius 2.Q. Horatius Flaccus 3.Seneca Kind of fun:) Weird that a Horatius came up there lol Not the one I took the name from but I'll take it. Even stranger is the phrase "Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio" has been one of my favorites since I was reading Latin in high school.
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For what it's worth here is an old thread that touched on Diocletian's economic reforms http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4720&st=0 Even though as Ursus pointed out it turned into a less than "riveting coinage debate" LOL!! I think there were some interesting points made and it was a major economic reform. It does show I guess that at this point it was recognized that there were serious problems with the state economy. You would not impose such drastic changes if things were running smoothly.
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Creationism, Intelligent Design or whatever you want to call it is not science. It is faith and a religious belief and should not be taught as an alternative to science. I took many Theology courses in college because I enjoyed them very much and religion is a basic component of human history but it has no place in science. Maybe Matthew Arnold recognized this too http://www.poetseers.org/the_romantics/mat...ary/dover_beach . Finest poem in the English language in my opinion (which means nothing).
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Well MPC's link brings up a 404 for me but here is a link to the twelve tables which are the foundation of Roman law as far as I know http://infomotions.com/etexts/gutenberg/di...14783/14783.htm ,obviously it evolved but some of it is fair I think even by modern standards. I would like to hear some informed posts about lawyers and legal procedures too. Cicero was a great lawyer and a lot of his trial speeches survive,some of them during the Sulla era, his defense of Sextus Roscius was brilliant I think and yeah he got him off! No small feat when it was said Sulla himself attended the trial
Here is his speech BTW http://www.uah.edu/student_life/organizati...oamerino1e.html -
But didn't the decay begin much earlier?
There was also around 536 a little known but catastrophic and very important climate event. Some historians claim it even ushered in the Dark Ages causing the Plague of Justinian and the migrations of many peoples such as the Mongols. Here is a short sketchy overview here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_changes_of_535-536 . It's very interesting whatever it was Comet,Meteor or Krakatoa . In fact I am reading Keys book right now http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Keys_%28author%29 http://www.amazon.com/Catastrophe-Investig...n/dp/0345408764 not widely accepted, but it certainly played a part to some degree. Personally I think Keys may be right especially if you consider the psychological effects such a drastic change in climate might have on civilizations. Nice discussion here http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=90232
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There were ways that the units could be reorganized, moved up, back, ordered to flank, encircle, etc., and these were most likely done by trumpets of different pitches, (lituus, tuba, cornicen) inclination of standards, hand signals, and maybe other means we don't fully understand. But the lines didn't just become automatons, they were kept in order by the command structure, and were maneuvered by those who could see a larger picture than the men on the front line.
Or perhaps a Whistle! I won't give up on the HBO recreation lol ROMAN LEGIONARY WHISTLE Material: Bronze Era: 1st to 3rd Century AD Culture: Roman Style: Roman Origin: An Antiquities Dealer in Las Vegas http://www.romanofficer.com/images/whistle-2.jpg This looks intriguing wonder if it is genuine? http://cgi.ebay.com/549d-Roman-Bronze-Legi...7QQcmdZViewItem " "Every 60 sec they would blow a whistle. The man in front of the line would turn and walk to the back while the guy behind him took his position. This way the enemy, every minute or so would fight a fresh soldier. An those injured in battle can have wounds treated in back of the line.One of the tactics they would try was to thrust their shield upward pushing up the enemy's arms so they can slip their short swords under their shields and up in their rib cage. Or they would cut the back of their legs, preventing the enemy from standing." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xODx3UJ7W7I Sorry to interrupt but I like it !
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It does seem interesting. I'll have to see if PBS offers a DVD of the program for sale.
It's online http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/
US electoral system explained
in Hora Postilla Thermae
Posted
Anytime I see something that looks like it was written by a 16 year old for the Godlike Productions forums here, I'll call it out every time. I am a lower middle class white male BTW, exactly the demographic stuff like this is aimed at and I hear this crap every day. Fear, ignorance,machismo and bigotry are major factors in any U.S. election, it's no mystery at all. If you want people to vote against their own self interests you have to press the right buttons.Watch and learn.
If my use of the word Sonny offended you I do apologize, I hope you do not require counseling to recover from the trauma.