Peter
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[...] He was now able to hijack Jesus into his Hellenistic religion with no opposition from Jesus' original followers. [...]
In reality it was the other way around:
The Roman Divus Iulius was hijacked by Judaizing him, by way of adding all the quotations from the books of the Jews to the original gospel (especially in Matthew). This was done after the Jewish war in order to make Jesus the awaited messiah of the Jews, in order to integrate them into the empire.
"Jesus'" original followers were the Roman people and especially his veterans, most of them being settled in the East in exactly those places whence later Christianity emerged.
You certainly have not read 'Jesus was Caesar'. It provides an abundance of evidence that the historical Jesus was Gaius Julius Caesar.
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[...]
before the man Jessu was born in Nazareth, Israel.
At that time there was no "Israel". And a village named "Nazareth" didn't exist in the beginning of the first century AD.
He reply, give me a coin, then ask them whos face is in the coin, they all replied, "of Caesar",then He said, " Give to Caesar what belong to Caesar, and to God what belong to God."
Isn't it possible that Caesar and Jesus (Divus Julius) are the two sides of the same coin?
my "intent" was to make more "diversified point of view", and not to make enemy, but of friends.That's okay, I like to make new friends, too. But here I'm primarily interested in a discussion of the fascinating discovery of Carotta. Don't compare his work to "The DaVinci Code". That's not fair.
Peter
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[...]
Therefore, as theories go, Julius Caesar as Christ - Possible ? Yes. Probable ? NO.
You have said some interestings things in your post, however, as far as the above comment is concerned I have to differ. Why? Not the earthly Julius Caesar was the Christ but Divus Iulius the god he became at the end of his life and ever more after his assassination and funeral which is the original Easter. The Easter liturgy does not follow the gospels but the funeral ritual of Caesar as was discovered by Ethelbert Stauffer (cf. Christ and the Caesars (1955) and particularly 'Jerusalem und Rom im Zeitalter Jesu Christi' (1957), the latter is not available in English unfortunately). For a comprehensive understanding of who Divus Julius was there is the work by Stefan Weinstock 'Divus Julius' (1971), Oxford.
One of the problems grasping the discovery presented in 'Jesus was Caesar' is that most people have no idea who Caesar really was and they know even less about Divus Iulius who became the highest God of the Empire (equated with Jupiter) and whose cult permeated the Empire especially the East where many of his veterans had been settled. You don't hear about that at school and hardly, if at all, at university either. Another problem lies in the fact that we have two thousand years of Christian theology behind us which many of us learned in that form or another from childhood on, so we have problems understanding the concept of apotheosis. However, some ancients knew that the gods had once been kings and queens who were elevated to godhead and worshipped after their deaths because they had been benefactors. Euhemeros of Messene wrote a book about that.
Peter
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Apsotle Paul is know as the "man of grace". What is his most contributing success to the Christian Church? How important was he to the church?
These questions gain even more importance in light of the discovery that the apostle Paul was none other than Flavius Josephus, see 'Jesus was Caesar':
"Jesus is the Divus Iulius of the Flavians: on behalf of a Flavian—Vespasianus; under supervision of a Flavian—Titus; formed by a Flavian—Flavius Josephus alias Paulus; and opposed by a Flavian—Domitianus. His resistance was in vain, for Domitianus was murdered. But that is another story."
So let's read Paul's epistles and Flavius Josephus' works anew.
Peter
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Apropos Hollywood, there have been some TV broadcasts in the Netherlands about 'Jesus was Caesar'.
Here is the talk of Professor Cliteur in favor of Carotta's work in the program Buitenhof. For streaming video see right side, choose bandwith. You'll need some Dutch though.
And this is the link to the recording of a NOVA-TV production with the author and again Prof. Cliteur. Unfortunately only the questions are in English but it's interesting and understandable nevertheless.
Peter
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Well : if You say so Peter. The Fisherman staus that Christ spoke from was an idealistic platform for the masses of humanity. That is he was a God living as a common man. Caesar was a God according to the Imperial Cult , already a Divine Being. He therefore did Not need to be as a common man. That is what I was attempting to relay Peter. Now can you add a few lines of knowledge and not just a short note of discord? I'd like to learn your knowledge about Christ and his message if you care to prove you know What You are taliking about!
What do you want to know about Christ specifically?
As to Caesar, yes he was a descendant of Venus (who became Mary) and he was proud of that. But he was also very popular among the common people because he stood on their side. And his proverbial clemency, the clementia Caesaris, was known throughout antiquity.
Suetonius writes that he" was numbered among the gods not only because of the proclamation of a decision but because of the conviciton of the people".
Suet. Jul. 88: [
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There are just so many historical writings of Christ the Loving messiah of an enslaved -bondaged mankind. Written by men and women of good moral virtues.
It is silly to even contrive that a Roman Caesar ; a man who represented world power with all of the riches that the created world had to offer him, would reduce himself to the status of a Jewish fisherman over religious dogma. Caesar was according to the Roman Imperial system ...a Divine Being. This was why he ruled. He did not need to reduce his status to become a King. He already was one. By Divine Right!
regards,
I don't think Caesar "reduced himself to the status of a Jewish fisherman...". This was done by others.
Maybe you should read the book in order to know what you are talking about.
Peter
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Welcome to the new Catholic Pope, the 265th, John Ratzinger of Germany.
The real name of the new Pontifex Maximus Benedict XVI is Joseph Ratzinger.
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This thread has been mostly civil despite the provocative nature of the topic. I would like to commend the members on their maturity and civility.
However, I understand that faith is a private thing and held dear for those so inclined. Overtly disparaging some one else's faith is not in the best interests of the site. Let's keep the topic confined to the academic and historical merits (if any) of the original thesis.
Who is disparaging someone else's faith?
I'm sorry if my posting was perceived that way by anyone, it wasn't meant to.
I just thought pompeius magnus remark was dispensable, and it also smacked a bit of an attempt of censorship.
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I think this post has overworn its usefullness, like the whole han dynasty vs. the roman empire.
Nobody urges you to read this thread if you're not interested. No wonder pompeius magnus says this.
After Pharsalos, Plutarchus, Pomp. 74-5, reports:
"I see, my husband, that you are lost in sorrow."
"You know only of one lot in my life, Cornelia, the better one that
perhaps also deceived you, because its faithfulness to me was unusually
prolonged. But we must also suffer this because we are human..."
And this is said in the gospel of John 3:29-31
"He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom,
which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of
the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must in-
crease, but I must decrease. He that cometh from above is above all:
he that is of the earth is earthly..."
Laudetur JC
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Has anyone of you guys ever read the Quran? Do you know what it says about Jesus?
In Sura 4, 157 it says:
"... And they did not crucify him, but a simulacrum (an effigy) was made of him. And those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow..."
... which again substantiates Carotta's thesis...
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If 'Moses' really wrote that, fine. But what has this to do with the historical Jesus?
Voltaire wrote: "If God created Man in His own image, Man has more than reciprocated."
Just correcting a little misinformation.
Which misinformation?
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Jesus is Christ, I have no problem with that. JC=JC. But the Bible tells us that Julius Ceasar was made in JC's image. That is a greater problem for me . .
Genesis 1:26
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
There is no mention of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. The Old Testament is a Judaic book. Moses wrote that passage. Hebrew lexicon implies that 'image' and 'likeness' indicate our similarity in form. That we are differentiated from animals.
If 'Moses' really wrote that, fine. But what has this to do with the historical Jesus?
Voltaire wrote: "If God created Man in His own image, Man has more than reciprocated."
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There's no need to argue, everyone is free to read and believe what they want.
Actually, in this case, I feel there is a need to argue, especially when a tenuous link at best is professed to be an all-revealing truth and changes history.
The "tenuous link" is not professed to be an all-revealing truth, it just reveals who the historical Jesus was. And it won't change history, it will only correct historiography. This might have consequences of course...
We're not speaking latin, we're using english here.Since Jesus was a Roman it might be a good idea to learn Latin again, for Christians at least and it won't hurt atheists either.
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[...]
The least you could do in your 'openmindedness' is consider all the possibilities not rule the miraculous out because it doesn't fit your worldview. I much rather sit accross an athiest who will here the evidence and just dismiss something as -- not realistic.
Sorry, didn't mean to vent, but it does burn me a little. People of faith are not stupid or misguided they simply have faith in something -- just like everyone does.
I could give that back to you 'consider all the possibilities'. But it seems you don't want to do that, are you afraid? Isn't that the greatest miracle of all how Divus Iulius became Jesus? I know both sides, the orthodox Christian one and the historical one presented in 'Jesus was Caesar'. Why don't you study both too and then see, which is more believable.
And it seems to me you are mistaken in assuming that the author of 'Jesus was Caesar' or people who realize it is true are atheists. Erika Simon, professor emeritus, the author of the afterword, e.g. calls herself a devout Catholic. How is that possible?
Could it be that you do not understand what faith really is? 'Faith' is derived from the Latin 'fides' meaning loyalty, faithfulness. What you refer to as 'faith' seems to me to be more credulity, no offense.
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PP hit it on the head - -there is a great deal we all take on faith -- like it or not.
If your "faith" hinges on Jesus walking over the water, changing water into wine and raising the dead in the literal, physical/biological sense then the Gospel might be enough for you. For those with a more realistic world view who are critical and do not believe every fairy tale they are told even if they are written in the "holy scriptures" 'Jesus was Caesar' finally provides the answer as to how Christianity, the largest world religion, came into being.
There's no need to argue, everyone is free to read and believe what they want.
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I think the point has been missed. I do not believe for one moment that the story of Jesus Christ is based on the story of Julius Caesar. They were separate men, they led separate lives, at differrent times, they both wore sandals. The wearing of sandals is the closest they'll ever get as far as I'm concerned. Parallels between individual's lives happen every hour. Especially if you 'stretch' the imagination.There are many examples of it in fiction.
Mohandas Gandhi was the Duke of Wellington. It's the same thing.
What you believe is of no relevance when it comes to the scientific Search for the Historical Jesus. There certainly are people who take the Gospel literally, but then again there are also those who believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.
Do you also believe what Matthew reports in 27:52-53... "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many"
Why did no historian report this earth-shattering event?
If you believe this is a factual report of what happened you better not read 'Jesus was Caesar', you may find it unbelievable.
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Now, call me a grufty Northerner, but:- Jesus and Caesar were two completely different men, they did completely different things, and they lived in completely different places, at completely different times. Where is the connection? Please?a logical result from a historical momentum and from cultural-dynamical phenomena
Smacks of the DaVinci Code to me. Bobbins. IT'S A MAN IN THE PAINTING!!!!
For Jesus and Caesar to be two completely different men they must have both existed as two independent real human beings on earth, right? Now, there is no doubt about the existence of Caius Julius Caesar, but what is the situation with the historicity of Jesus? Short answer: there is not the slightest shred of evidence for the existence of miracle-doing wandering preacher named Jesus of Nazareth. A summary can be found here.
Julius Caesar, an indubitable figure of history ("the greatest among mortals"), was elevated to the highest God of the empire after his murder, Divus Iulius. The cult of Divus Iulius permeated the whole empire especially the east where many of his veterans had been settled. The cult surrounding Caesar dissolved as a cult surrounding Jesus Christ, who is never mentioned by early historians, appeared.
The thesis of 'Jesus was Caesar' is that Jesus, the (son of ) God, is Divus Iulius, as he has been transmitted through history, the Gospel proves to be a corrupted retelling (the miraculous victories of Caesar become the victorious miracles of Jesus, etc.) of the life of Julius Caesar from the Rubicon to his assassination and apotheosis (Jesus parallel: From the Jordan to his crucifixion and resurrection).
Here is a summary of the main points.
I have read the book and I can assure you this is not a hoax or ficition like "The DaVinci Code". This is the real thing, this is the historical Jesus.
Hope this helps.
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Some stories, may they be fictious or real, become successful all around the globe, adaptable to any cultural surroundings on this planet: tales like "Pinocchio", films like "The Godfather", real-life stories like that of Oscar Schindler, scientific revolutions like Einstein's theories of relativity, catastrophes like the 2005 Tsunami, religious narrations like those found in the New Testament. Why? Because they comprise the basic rules for telling a story: they are fascinating, interesting, compelling, unique, understandable and universal. Successful stories have a common and basic aesthetic and social value, because they tell you something about life as a human...and they tend to stay simple and focused in their emotional and intellectual contents. Good stories as well as major turning points in history will make you forget the chaotic complexity of earthly life, because they reduce and transcend existence to a brilliant, airy, clear, majestic and spherical order.
In the course of history, successful stories have always undergone cultural transformations and adaptations, and poignant historical events have always had far reaching consequences. In the 1950s the German theologian Ethelbert Staufer discovered that the Christian Easter liturgy isn't based on genuine Christian sources, but on the funeral ceremony and passion of Caius Iulius Caesar, the founder of modern civilization. This ceremony is one of the most important events in the history of mankind, for it decided not only on the fate of the Roman Empire, but the fate of Christianity, Europe and the whole world. An improvised funeral service, driven by a wide range of deep emotions from sorrow to love, from remorse to fury, turned into uproar and insurrection, shaped Rome for all times and sealed Caesar's apotheosis to the highest God of the state, Divus Iulius. A few generations later Caesar's story was still being told, the God Iulius still being worshipped, especially in the Eastern colonies, where many of his veterans had settled after the Civil War. There, in a different cultural context, the story was altered, adapted, incorrectly translated, misinterpretated, but nonetheless understood: its core and ethics were preserved, and after the Jewish War, Christianity suddenly surfaced and swept into western Rome. Soon afterwards the Julian religion was extinct and forgotten.
In the book "Jesus was Caesar" by linguist and philosopher Francesco Carotta, Ethelbert Staufer's findings are anything but a coincidence, rather a logical result from a historical momentum and from cultural-dynamical phenomena, which Carotta reveals in a scientific tour-de-force rollercoaster ride. "Jesus was Caesar" is a praiseworthy and highly learned work of daring excellency. This is not some borderline esoteric pap, but a gritty and witty report that never loses its scientific seriousness. The reader will embark on a journey into the Roman womb of Christendom, where astounding parallels between the lives of Jesus Christ and Iulius Caesar are revealed. Strange enough, although Carotta finally presents to us the historical Jesus in overwhelming grandezza, orthodox scientists and believers hate (and fear) this work, which has been available in other languages since 1999, because it is not a theory at all, but a huge cluster of historical, archeological, numismatic, cultural, theological and linguistic facts and accords. Moreover, "Jesus was Caesar" is the ever first, truly integral design on the origin of Christianity and the roots of the Christ, far beyond the mere myth that is being preached in our churches. As Jesus/Iulius did, this book will eventually change the world...
...if, yes, IF Francesco Carotta is right. Since this is highly probable, scientists and non-scientists, believers and non-believers are starting to feel comfortable with Carotta's findings. His book was once said to be of the same order of importance as the scientific discoveries of Galileo and Kopernikus...and if this is all just a scientific hoax, it will still go down in history as one of the greatest and most thoroughly conceived pieces of art, comparable only to Beethoven's "Ode to Joy", Shakespeare's "Hamlet", the Mona Lisa...and yes, for some people maybe even "The Naked Gun". Either way, it's a "must read".
Found here
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This is not history -- it is historical speculation and their is a difference.
So you think you really know Caesar? Well, here is a nice little test, see if you can pass it:
http://www.carotta.de/subseite/texte/esumm...a/edictato.html
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This might be the drawing 'cheese' referred to:
http://www.community.thebeastmovie.com/vie...0e4b0d2ea25c084
Probably not exactly true to original, however a nice first attempt.
Peter
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Seems this 'cheese' is on a crusade against Carotta's work and on his way does not flinch from distorting what Carotta says. Maybe people should read his work and judge for themselves.
Appianus writes in his The Civil Wars (ed. Horace White):
[147] While they were in this temper and were already near to violence, somebody raised above the bier an image of C
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Salutem cunctis,
I had posted this in the after hour lounge but I though it might be better placed here:
According to the Italian scholar Francesco Carotta the historical Jesus was Caesar!
Carotta: "The Gospel proves to be the history of the Roman Civil war, a 'mis-telling' of the life of Caesar-from the Rubicon to his assassination-mutated into the narrative of Jesus, from the Jordan to his crucifixion. Jesus is a true historical figure, he lived as Gaius Julius Caesar, and resurrected as Divus Julius."
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories....02986805&EDATE=
Quite a sensation! Comments anybody?
Valete
Peter
Apostle Paul
in Templum Romae - Temple of Rome
Posted
No, and btw you can read it for free on Carotta's website. From January 06 the whole book will be online.
You're correct maybe my response was not pertinent in this thread, however don't forget that Paul and Jesus (Divus Julius) belong together. No Divus Julius -> no Jesus -> no Paulus -> no Christianity as we know it.
Peter