[Roman Divination]

Thank you so much Stoic, I knew that vultures were esteemed from one end of the Med to the other but the cult symbolism usually accompanied death scenes. Plutarch's comments make sense but were new to me.

 

No problem! I guess their scarcity in that region makes for why they aren't mentioned more often but it's kind of neat to realize that they are pretty harmless creatures, feeding only off the dead n' such.

[Timeline]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I'll go with Suetonius first then.

 

M. Porcius Cato, I'm liking it! Going to pick that up ASAP. Thanks again everyone.

[Timeline]

If you're going to read Plutarch, then you might as well read Tacitus first to avoid overlap. But what's your goal here anyway? If you're trying to construct a mental timeline, there's no way to do it by casually reading the ancient sources. This is just what secondary sources are designed to do.

 

Mainly just entertainment and to get a broad understanding. I considered becoming an ancient history major, as ancient history has always been my supreme interest, but instead am going for International Relations as to have something a bit more pratical considering the current state of the fields. So it's mostly just a hobby. And I have every intention of picking up the secondary sources, I know from reading the foot/endnotes that what I'm reading is flawed in one way or another but I like reading the voices of the times. What we would consider superstition presented as fact, etc...makes for quite an enjoyable read.

[Roman Divination]

That's an interesting reasoning, and one I've not heard expressed that way; do you have a source for that?

 

It took me a bit to find where I picked it up but it's from Plutarch's Life of Romulus:

 

Agreeing to settle their quarrel by the flight of birds of omen, and taking their seats on the ground apart from one another, six vultures, they say, were seen by Remus, and twice that number by Romulus. Some, however, say that whereas Remus truly saw his six, Romulus lied about his twelve, but that when Remus came to him, then he did see the twelve. Hence it is that at the present time also the Romans chiefly regard vultures when they take auguries from the flight of birds.

 

Herodorus Ponticus relates that Hercules also was glad to see a vulture present itself when he was upon an exploit. For it is the least harmful of all creatures, injures no grain, fruit-tree, or cattle, and lives on carrion. But it does not kill or maltreat anything that has life, and as for birds, it will not touch them even when they are dead, since they are of its own species. But eagles, owls, and hawks smite their own kind when alive, and kill them. And yet, in the words of Aeschylus:

 

How shall a bird that preys on fellow bird be clean?"

 

Besides, other birds are, so to speak, always in our eyes, and let themselves be seen continually; but the vulture is a rare sight, and it is not easy to come upon a vulture's young, nay, some men have been led into a strange suspicion that the birds come from some other and foreign land to visit us here, so rare and intermittent is their appearance, which soothsayers think should be true of what does not present itself naturally, nor spontaneously, but by a divine sending.

[Roman Divination]

From what I've picked up so far:

 

Vultures were the most sacred birds because they never killed a living thing (hence the Romulus and Remus competition as to who would see the most vultures would be the founder of the city); Geece were sacred and saved Rome (As they warned the Romans that the Gauls were trying to take their citadel durring their sack of Rome); the chickens eating as mentioned before (the hungrier they were the better).

 

The livers of certain animals were considered to predict a positive outcome if they were clear during their inspection and if they contained a defined 'head' (but if the head was missing this was bad), lightening striking a temple usually indicated that the said God was unsatisified whereas lightening striking a wall indicated the same (as far as I can tell anyways, probably whichever God was considered the patron of said city was the one who was angry); derformed animals and people at birth (having both sexual organs particularly) were considered abombinations and cast into the sea; 'raining stones' (not hail as I orginally thought since this is mentioned seperately) was an omen of particular concern and the books were always pulled out when that happend.

 

Other then those, there are many, many mentions of isolated incidences such as strange lights and objects in the sky, statures bleeding or sweating, the sun turning red, rivers and fountains issuing blood, etc...

[Timeline]

Thanks for the replies. I do have Appian's Civil War and Plutarch's lives (which I have been reading as I first discover the individuals in their settings in other texts). I will definetly check into Dio as I've seen him mentioned during my lurking here quite often.

 

Another question, I have both Tacticus' Annals and Histories and Suetonius' twelve Caesars. They both seem to revolve around the same period more or less, any suggestions on which I should read first when I get there?

[New Hannibal Film]

What's with all the negativity? This movie is going to be great! Who can actually sit there and defend those dastardly Brits? I mean, if Hannibal hadn't invaded Britain to free the slaves, who would have? I am looking forward to the sequel "Hannibal vs. the Third Reich".

[Timeline]

I have been reading quite a bit the last year on Greece and primarily Rome but am having some problems filling in the gaps timeline wise. This is what I have read so far:

 

The Histories- Herodotus

History of the Peloponessian War- Thucydides

A History of My Times- Xenophon

The Campaigns of Alexander- Arrian

The Rise of the Roman Republic- Livy

Rome And Italy- Livy

The War with Hannibal- Livy

The Rise of the Roman Empire- Polybius

The Dawn of the Roman Empire- Livy

 

My problem is, I don't really know where to go from here. I had gaps before but am hoping that there is something which can span the 70 some years between the last Livy book and Sallust's Jugurthine War (which is next on my list) since this is when Rome really begins to start its shift away from Republicanism. Any help would be appreciated.

 

P.S.- I am looking for classical texts only. I plan on delving into modern books on the subject after I've filled my head with what they will probably use as references.