[Give Me Another!]

Excellent post. That is probably why Roman recruits were hard to get in the later years of the Empire. They got fed up with all the strict disipline and wanted a lot of money to put up with that. Money was not something Rome had a lot in its later years.

[Roman Legions At Chalons]

So what was left of the legions was basically germans and other tribes trained in a Roman manner? Then what discouraged the Romans from joining the military?

Several reasons. For one, the patriotism that the legions served under had declined since Rome was an empire. Now, the Roman legions wanted money and lots of it. Each soldier cost a lot. Money was not something the Roman Empire had a lot of, due to several economic crashes which I won't go into detail here. Barbarian mercenaries were willing to fight for Rome for a smaller cost than Romans, so the Roman Empire hired lots of them. Such recruitment among barbarians that were officially Rome's enemies caused some very interesting diplomatic situations with Rome and the other barbarian nations. Anyway, by the time of Chalons, half of the entire Roman legions were barbarian mercenaries. However, these mercenaries were not as well trained or reliable as true Roman soldiers.

[Cataphracts.]

Salve, guys!

 

I found this in History Channel. I know nothing about their sources. Unedited (SIC) :

 

"The first unit of cataphracts for Rome were formed apparently under Trajan. They reached their days of glory under Belisarius/Narses (reign of Justinian) and were intstrumental in Heraclius' heroic campaigns to reclaim the empire from the resurgent Persians.

The Cataphracts disappeared about the 800s AD so they lasted about 3 centuries. Their height of power seems to have lasted from Belisarius to Heraclius and they slowly decayed in quality until they disappeared.

 

I don't think there is much to distinguish them apart from Mongol heavy cavalry. As heavy horsemen and horse archers they were basically equal. The cataphracts were capable of fighting effectively on foot, which I have not read the Mongol were capable of.

 

Overall I'd give the slight advanage to the Mongols for superb tactical, operational and strategic abilities. Their mobility, given that each Mongol had a string of around 5 horses, was superior to all other cavalry. In a head to head charge they would have disadvatage against the presumably heavier cataphracts, but as I pointed out in another post they would not receive a charge from heavier cavalry in such a way and would defeat it through tactical guile"

 

What do you think about it?

 

Actually, I have heard that the Cataphracts survived as the Kataphractoi in the Byzantine Empire long after 800 A.D. They fell into decline after the battle of Manzikert because of the loss of Asia Minor due to that battle. The best horses came from Asia Minor.

[Cataphracts.]

I believe you can find some stuff about Cataphracts here., it's from an older thread at this forum where they are (Among other things) discussed.

Okay. Thanks.

[Rome's Heavy Cavalry]

The Cataphracts were mostly recruited from the middle class. Their horses generally came from the East because the East had the faster stronger cavalry. The Eastern Roman Empire had the Cataphracts, while the Western Roman Empire depended on Samartians cavarly and some Palatina.

[What really stopped Atilla the Hun?]

Attila wasn't an atheist with superstitious beliefs, he was a pagan, as was Hunnic culture. Because of the wide diversity of the Hunnic population, these beliefs were probably not uniform, but a lack of 'christianity' doesn't constitute atheism. (Despite the incorrect claim of Ammianus Marcellinus in The History 31.2.11).

 

In any case, I believe it was Priscus who suggested that Attila feared the fate that Alaric met after sacking Rome a generation earlier in AD 410. Alaric died shortly thereafter at the young age of 40ish. (I can't find the exact passage, alas)

 

However, Procopius doesn't even bother mentioning the meeting with Attila and Leo. He claims that Attila simply interpreted an omen and decided against invasion

 

From Procopius, History of the Wars Book IV:

So after the death of Aetius,[24] Attila, since no one was a match for

him, plundered all Europe with no trouble and made both emperors

subservient and tributary to himself. For tribute money was sent to him

every year by the emperors. At that time, while Attila was besieging

Aquileia, a city of great size and exceedingly populous situated near

the sea and above the Ionian Gulf, they say that the following good

fortune befell him. For they tell the story that, when he was able to

capture the place neither by force nor by any other means, he gave up

the siege in despair, since it had already lasted a long time, and

commanded the whole army without any delay to make their preparations

for the departure, in order that on the morrow all might move from there

at sunrise. And the following day about sunrise, the barbarians had

raised the siege and were already beginning the departure, when a single

male stork which had a nest on a certain tower of the city wall and was

rearing his nestlings there suddenly rose and left the place with his

young. And the father stork was flying, but the little storks, since

they were not yet quite ready to fly, were at times sharing their

father's flight and at times riding upon his back, and thus they flew

off and went far away from the city. And when Attila saw this (for he

was most clever at comprehending and interpreting all things), he

commanded the army, they say, to remain still in the same place, adding

that the bird would never have gone flying off at random from there with

his nestlings, unless he was prophesying that some evil would come to

the place at no distant time. Thus, they say, the army of the barbarians

settled down to the siege once more, and not long after that a portion

of the wall--the very part which held the nest of that bird--for no

apparent reason suddenly fell down, and it became possible for the enemy

to enter the city at that point, and thus Aquileia was captured by

storm. Such is the story touching Aquileia.

 

 

 

So Attila was a pagan, I just got the idea he was an aethist from an inaccurate source on Roman history then. It is mentioned in history that he did meet with the pope. Well, the bad omen did not stop him from battling the Romans at Chalons.

[Cataphracts.]

Does anyone have any articles on the Cataphracts? I found a few on Wikipedia(not very accuarate) and a few other sites. I know that the Cataphracts orginated in Armenia and Persia, but how did they miagrate over to Eastern Roman Empire use? I also know that the Cataphracts were middle class elite troops. The Cataphracts are perhaps my favorite miliatary unit.

[Roman Legions At Chalons]

There probably would have been a lot of barbarian mercs, and some cominsates(I did not spell that right, but I meant the heavier fighters that came about due to Constantine's military reforms.

[what part of the army would you be in?]

I'm not sure what part I would be. Had I existed in Roman times and had my pick of positions, I'd like to be part of the early heavy cavalry that evolved into Byzantine Cataphracts.

 

Otherwise, it is likely I'd likely be in the velite.

Yes, I would like to be part of the Cataphracts. Either that, or I would like to be part of the Urban cohort which was an elite group of the Praetorians.

[Byzantium: The Lost Empire Documentary]

I bought the VHS tapes of this show years ago, and still watch it once or twice a year. True, it doesn't go into any great depth, but it is an excellent primer for someone who is unfamiliar with the Byzantine Empire.

That's cool. I like the Byzantine Empire. I especially like their military units, the Kataphractoi and the Varangian guard.

[What really stopped Atilla the Hun?]

According to history, Atilla made it to Rome and was about to take over when Pope Leo 1(I think that was his name) stopped him. How did a Pope convince a Hun to leave? There are three possibilities.

 

One: He impressed the Hun with his piety and claimed that Saint Paul helped him. This seems unlikely, since piety didn't stop the Hun from destroying churchs elsewhere? Also, I doubt Saint Paul helped him. Besides, I doubt he would help the empire that had him beheaded.

 

Two: The Pope used Atilla's superstition against him. Let's remember that while Atilla was aethistic he did have many superstitious beliefs. He was known to have a band of shamans and magicians. The Pope might have told him that the spirits of the saints would be angry if he took Rome.

 

Three: He used political savvy to get Atilla to leave. This is the most likely. There was a plague going on in Italy at that time, so Attila feared that his victory would be undone if he took a plagued city. Also, Rome had been sacked several times and was in ruin. The Pope might have convinced Atilla that Rome was not worth taking for it was in such ruin. Atilla didn't care about money, he cared about conquest, so the Pope could not give him money to leave.

 

Somehow, the Pope convinced Atilla to leave. Atilla probably thought that he would come back later to take Rome. Unfortunately, he died of suffocation by a nosebleed so that didn't work out. Comments and corrections are welcome.

[Romans in Denmark?]

It could be. I'm surprised the Danes didn't massacre any military presence the Romans had there, if they had any.