[Diocletian's Imperial Guards]

I have a question (or a bunch of questions) that I'm desperately trying to find an answer to...it seems that everywhere I look I'm getting information that is either conflicting or vague. So hopefully someone here can straighten me out!

 

I know that when Diocletian set up the Tetrarchy, he didn't continue to use the Praetorian Guard as his own personal guard unit. If I'm understanding correctly, he created the Jovians and Herculians from two faithful legions to be the new imperial guards. Is that correct? Were the Jovians attached to him (who styled himself Jovianus) and the Herculians to Maximian in Rome? Or did Maximian still have the Praetorian Guard, and the Jovians and Herculians were both attached to Diocletian?

 

Also, I'm getting a bit hung up on the technical terms for the military divisions. Let's say the Jovians were in fact Diocletian's personal bodyguard. Would they have been considered a comitatus praesentales? Was the term "palatini" only used after Constantine?

 

As for their hierarchy, I think I had read that the Praetorian Guard was commanded at the highest level by a Tribune...was this also the case of Jovians? Does anyone know what the numbers and ranks in this elite group might have looked like? Would they have had centurions, etc? Also, I know that Constantine achieved the rank of "tribunus ordinis primi"...and I thought I had read from somewhere else that he was in Diocletian's personal guard. So basically I'm wondering, would Constantine have served in the Jovians, and is this "tribune of the first order" a possible rank in that group?

 

Any help would be SO appreciated...I'm getting dizzy trying to make sense of all of this. 

 

Thanks!

[Liberalia for a fatherless boy?]

Sorry to take so long to reply...got really busy there for a few days! But thank you all so much for the help! Caldrail, that was some great information...I really appreciate it! 

 

What rank did the boy's father have?

 

I have him as the Legatus Legionis of this particular permanent Legion castra. But he was reputed to have died dishonorably in battle.

 

I'm not an expert on this topic, but wouldn't the location of Anatolia (where Turkey is now) mean that Greek customs would prevail, not Roman? Unless, of course, your boy's family were descended from Italian colonists.

 

There seems to have been a lot of cross-over, as far as I can tell. As part of the Legion, I imagined this family would be pretty well in tune with Roman customs, but as cultural Greeks they may have followed those customs too. I admit, I'm not overly familiar with Greek coming-of-age ceremonies...does anyone know if they had particular rites/customs like the Liberalia?

 

 

It depends. If the boy is well connected and popular, perhaps somebody in the settlement would honour him as such. There might be local native customs to consider. However, it's just as likely that the young man would be considered so by necessity and that no coming-of-age ceremony would take place, bearing in mind that such ceremonies are usually (and were so to the Romans), family orientated.

 

That is interesting. That could actually work as well for this situation. I was thinking of having the Tribune, who had thought highly of the boy's father, offer to stand in his father's place (but never actually has a chance to, as the boy has to leave the village before it happens).

 

He would have to be freeborn for the ceremony to pass with common approval. However, the toga virilis merely celebrates the entitlement of a male to be considered an adult and is honourary - it confers no actual status, and for older men a plain toga is exactly the same.

 

Okay. At this time, because of the universal grant of citizenship, I assume there wasn't anything special that had to be done, like enrolling the boy's name or anything. I can't imagine how difficult that would have been, logistically speaking, if Caracalla hadn't passed that Edict.
 

 

It depends. Her family would be obliged to ensure she was taken care of, and she might well re-marry after a brief period of mourning, as would be expected. She would of course be entitled to the inheritance from her dead husbands will, circumstances allowing. Please note...

Lex Iulia de Maritandis Ordinibus (18 BC) – marrying-age celibates and young widows that would not marry were barred from receiving inheritances and from attending public games
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_laws

 

Thank you for that link and information! All interesting things to mull over...

Interesting point. I suspect that we cannot simply divide Roman practises into pagan and christian so neatly. Christianity was never a unified movement in Roman times, not even after the Council of Nicaea in 325 designed to achieve solidarity, and the observance of ritual was partially then down to which sect the worshipper belonged. There would be certain practises, like burial, that were either one or the other. Traditional customs may well have persisted - after all, many of the christian rituals concerning weddings we practise today - An exchange of rings, cutting the cake, carrying a bride across the threshold, and confetti - are actually pagan Roman customs inherited from their republican era.

 

 

Ah, fascinating! And yes, that would make sense.

 

Technical issue here...is there a way to edit where it says "Quote" in those passages? I tried using the MultiQuote thing, but as soon as I tried to break up the quote from Caldrail, the whole thing got broken down into little quotes with no indication of authorship. Kind of annoying.

At any rate, you have given me some great material to think over...I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions! This is so, so helpful! 

[Marriage for Legionaries in the Late Empire?]

Hi all...I hope I'm putting this in the right section...

 

I'd been under the impression that Legionaries could not legally marry after the time of Augustus, but someone I talked to thought that this might have changed at some point in the 2nd century...is that correct? I thought it went at least into the early part of the 3rd century, but I'm not sure. Then there's Phang's book on the topic which only goes to 235 AD. Did something change dramatically at that point, or is that simply the scope of the book's focus?

 

My time period of focus is 298-303, so I'm curious to see if the marriage restriction was still at least theoretically in place at that time. Thanks!

 

Lucretia

[Liberalia for a fatherless boy?]

Hi everyone! Well, this is my first "real" topic here...so I'm excited to get some help on a topic that's been stumping me! In the novel I'm working on, I have a character who is in his mid-teens, who is living at a village that grew up around a permanent Legion fortress in modern-day Turkey. (Time period is during Diocletian's reign, near the end of the third century). This boy's father died several years ago, before the boy was old enough to be recognized as a man.

 

I was just curious how a boy's coming of age would be handled if he had no father to give him the toga virilis and no paternal uncle living in the area either? Would someone in the community take the father's place? I assume the boy couldn't just...pick up the white toga himself without it being some kind of public offense. Would the boy have any standing in society, if his now-dead father had held a prominent position (say, Legate) before his death?

 

Also, does anyone know what might have been done for a Legate's widow and family? Would they be given a pension, perhaps? Or left on their own?

 

And one final point of curiosity...did Christian boys celebrate the Liberalia like their pagan peers? I know part of the ceremony involves dedicating the bulla to the lares, correct?  But I doubt a Christian would want to take part in that.

 

Thanks in advance for any help! I'm having a blast already, browsing through the topics here. So much amazing information collected here.

[Welcome and Introduce Yourself Here]

Hi everyone! Thrilled to find this board...I studied history and Latin in college, then political philosophy as a grad student before going on to write fiction. I'm coming full circle now...writing a historical fiction novel that takes place in imperial Rome! Hoping to get some good information here to supplement what I've been digging up on my own...and looking forward to meet fellow enthusiasts of Roman history!