Melvadius Posted September 13, 2009 Report Share Posted September 13, 2009 (edited) Actually Germany is north of Danube. Most of it indeed is (like half of Bavaria is an exception); Gallia Belgica was entirely north of that river, not to mention Britannia and obviously the Roman occupied Caledonia; the northernmost confirmed Roman construction is Stracathro (56 Edited September 13, 2009 by Melvadius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryaxis Hecatee Posted September 13, 2009 Report Share Posted September 13, 2009 I just purchased Murdoch's "Rome's Greatest Defeat". The review on UNRV sounded solid and it's not pure academia. Any thoughts on other books about the Battle of Teutoburg? Any good fiction? A not too bad recent fiction on the battle is Harry Turtledove's "Give me back my legions" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylla Posted September 13, 2009 Report Share Posted September 13, 2009 (edited) Actually Germany is north of Danube. Most of it indeed is (like half of Bavaria is an exception); Gallia Belgica was entirely north of that river, not to mention Britannia and obviously the Roman occupied Caledonia; the northernmost confirmed Roman construction is Stracathro (56 Edited September 14, 2009 by sylla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvadius Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 In Britain we generally do not bother with latitudes and longitudes unless we are in the maritime or aviation industry - Ordnance survey grid references are normally the only terms of reference used for historic sites. I have no argument about the Varian disaster stopping Roman expansion in the short term while forces were realigned and decisions made about the value of further expansion in this as opposed to any other area. The subsequent invasion of Britain although almost 40 years later gives the lie to the Varian disaster forcing total ceasation of the idea of expansion and conquest let alone punitive attacks over the next four centuries. T he limiting factor for Roman expansion is more likely to have been a combination of the extent of power the emperors were willing to grant to individual commanders, extent of supply lines, the resources tied up in controlling the border area and value of the ultimate objective. The Roman ideal can be seen to be areas where there were already significant urban development along with control of specific resources, unlike the result of their southern British conquest which is known to have tied up a significant number of men and other resources for three to four centuries. although there was direct access to some rare or otherwise useful resources in reality only a few urban development reached any significant size throughout the period of Roman control. Regarding the permanence of marching camps they may leave a permanent scar on the landscape however they were generally not occupied for more than a few days unlike the forts and other manned outposts along the Gask Frontier ending at Strathcaro which were occupied over several years. Irrespective of what Strabo or Plinty wrote as I said before 'certainly approaching 100% of the men serving along either limes would have considered it pointless knowing whether one border was [physically] 'north' or 'south' of the other' although they probably did know that in Britain they were in the far north-west of the empire...probably often cold, wet and otherwise unhappy with their lot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylla Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 Regarding the permanence of marching camps they may leave a permanent scar on the landscape however they were generally not occupied for more than a few days unlike the forts and other manned outposts along the Gask Frontier ending at Strathcaro which were occupied over several years. As usual, we almost entirely agree, (I mean, if all that implied that Rome "expanded" over Britannia but not Caledonia) .Irrespective of what Strabo or Plinty wrote as I said before 'certainly approaching 100% of the men serving along either limes would have considered it pointless knowing whether one border was [physically] 'north' or 'south' of the other' although they probably did know that in Britain they were in the far north-west of the empire...probably often cold, wet and otherwise unhappy with their lot An almost certainly unverifiable assertion; in any case, leaving aside Strabo and Pliny is already not "100%". However, I guess the same can be said from the military personnel serving nowadays in Greenland . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGolomb Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 I'm catching up on some of the Teutoburg anniversary news and blog postings. I also just finished Murdoch's "Rome's Greatest Defeat". So a couple of things below... - Here's an article from two weeks ago from Spiegel online. This a good piece that summarizes the event itself as well as providing cultural/political context - to which Murdoch dedicates an entire chapter in his book. From the story: But Germany is marking the event with noticeable restraint. There's no sense of glory and no program of flag-waving festivals of the sort one would expect in other nations celebrating their creation. In fact, a lot of Germans don't even know about Arminius. Many schools shunned his story after 1945 because he became contaminated by the militant nationalism that led to Hitler. Interest has gradually reawakened since the discovery of the presumed site of the battle in the late 1980s, and there has been intense media coverage of the man and the myth this year. - Nice Photo Gallery from the Spiegel article. 2 of 9 pictures below - I have a question regarding the battle. The Spiegel article as well as Murdoch in "Rome's Greatest Defeat" speak of earthworks that were built up in a narrow area to provide a place for the germanic tribes to hide in the ultimate battle. Can someone explain how the Romans were fooled by these man-made walls? Does the picture above of the wooden "fence" represent what the tribes hid behind (the fences at the museum were built smaller than what existed 2,000 years ago). I'm having trouble picturing the ruse exactly. It strikes me as rather obvious that the legions wouldn't happily skip into this trap so I'm assuming I'm not envisioning the right thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylla Posted September 14, 2009 Report Share Posted September 14, 2009 (edited) Thanks, JG. - Here's an article from two weeks ago from Spiegel online. This a good piece that summarizes the event itself as well as providing cultural/political context - to which Murdoch dedicates an entire chapter in his book.From the story: But Germany is marking the event with noticeable restraint. There's no sense of glory and no program of flag-waving festivals of the sort one would expect in other nations celebrating their creation. In fact, a lot of Germans don't even know about Arminius. Many schools shunned his story after 1945 because he became contaminated by the militant nationalism that led to Hitler. Interest has gradually reawakened since the discovery of the presumed site of the battle in the late 1980s, and there has been intense media coverage of the man and the myth this year. An excellent article indeed. Distorting History for chauvinistic purposes has always been a bad idea, but repressing it is probably no better. After all, Congolese people can hardly blame Ambiorix for the Belgian African conquest... The Hermann story is not totalitarian by itself; as stated by this article, Von Kleist actually used it against the Napoleonic oppression of Germany. Edited September 14, 2009 by sylla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvadius Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 <SNIP>- I have a question regarding the battle. The Spiegel article as well as Murdoch in "Rome's Greatest Defeat" speak of earthworks that were built up in a narrow area to provide a place for the germanic tribes to hide in the ultimate battle. Can someone explain how the Romans were fooled by these man-made walls? Does the picture above of the wooden "fence" represent what the tribes hid behind (the fences at the museum were built smaller than what existed 2,000 years ago). I'm having trouble picturing the ruse exactly. It strikes me as rather obvious that the legions wouldn't happily skip into this trap so I'm assuming I'm not envisioning the right thing. What you have to envisage is that rather than the relatively well manicured area depicted in the pictures, when the battle occured the Romans were trying to work their way through dense ancient woodland unfder a series of attacks - tree limbs would probably have been closer to the ground with a dense understory of bushes and fallen limbs which would not have been heavily browsed by cattle or other animals making travel difficult. The battle site was also close to lower lying marshy ground and the Romans may have been using a game trail or a narrow path in an attempt to skirt the marshy area. When you see plans of the battle site and associated debris trail these normally show the wall line snaking around the base of a slight rise but getting closer to the marshy land. As the battle is basically described as a running fight which took place over a few days with dense woodland cover and only a limited ability to scout their route the Roman probably did not realise that the 'wall' was there until they were already in the teeth of the final trap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGolomb Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 <SNIP>- I have a question regarding the battle. The Spiegel article as well as Murdoch in "Rome's Greatest Defeat" speak of earthworks that were built up in a narrow area to provide a place for the germanic tribes to hide in the ultimate battle. Can someone explain how the Romans were fooled by these man-made walls? Does the picture above of the wooden "fence" represent what the tribes hid behind (the fences at the museum were built smaller than what existed 2,000 years ago). I'm having trouble picturing the ruse exactly. It strikes me as rather obvious that the legions wouldn't happily skip into this trap so I'm assuming I'm not envisioning the right thing. What you have to envisage is that rather than the relatively well manicured area depicted in the pictures, when the battle occured the Romans were trying to work their way through dense ancient woodland unfder a series of attacks - tree limbs would probably have been closer to the ground with a dense understory of bushes and fallen limbs which would not have been heavily browsed by cattle or other animals making travel difficult. The battle site was also close to lower lying marshy ground and the Romans may have been using a game trail or a narrow path in an attempt to skirt the marshy area. When you see plans of the battle site and associated debris trail these normally show the wall line snaking around the base of a slight rise but getting closer to the marshy land. As the battle is basically described as a running fight which took place over a few days with dense woodland cover and only a limited ability to scout their route the Roman probably did not realise that the 'wall' was there until they were already in the teeth of the final trap. Mevadius - thank you very much. In context of the scene of the fighting that makes more sense. I did a quick google search for maps of the battle but couldn't find much that made sense. Is anyone aware of anything online that shows the course of the battle/s (inasmuch as historians can identify where the battles took place)? I did come across this map (for some reason I couldn't embed the image). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvadius Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 (edited) Mevadius - thank you very much. In context of the scene of the fighting that makes more sense. I did a quick google search for maps of the battle but couldn't find much that made sense. Is anyone aware of anything online that shows the course of the battle/s (inasmuch as historians can identify where the battles took place)? I did come across this map (for some reason I couldn't embed the image). I remember that there used to be several good pages on a University site covering the excavations at Kalkriese a few years back, which showed the line of the fortified wall as well as the distribution of finds unfortunately I discovered a year or two ago that it had been taken down. However, the following link to Ancient Warfare Magazine has some background on the battle as well as a map of the distibution of finds which you may find interesting. http://www.livius.org/te-tg/teutoburg/teut...-kalkriese.html NB If I am not mistaken if you click on the 'satellite photo' (actually an aerial photograph) of the site the wavy path running horizontally across the site is actually the line of the wall [edit - which was discovered through excavation]. Edited September 15, 2009 by Melvadius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylla Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 (edited) Mevadius - thank you very much. In context of the scene of the fighting that makes more sense. I did a quick google search for maps of the battle but couldn't find much that made sense. Is anyone aware of anything online that shows the course of the battle/s (inasmuch as historians can identify where the battles took place)? I did come across this map (for some reason I couldn't embed the image). I remember that there used to be several good pages on a University site covering the excavations at Kalkriese a few years back, which showed the line of the fortified wall as well as the distribution of finds unfortunately I discovered a year or two ago that it had been taken down. However, the following link to Ancient Warfare Magazine has some background on the battle as well as a map of the distibution of finds which you may find interesting. http://www.livius.org/te-tg/teutoburg/teut...-kalkriese.html NB If I am not mistaken if you click on the 'satellite photo' (actually an aerial photograph) of the site the wavy path running horizontally across the site is actually the line of the wall [edit - which was discovered through excavation]. Actually, that "satellite photo" is a ... satellite map (not exactly what we usually understand as a "photo"); you can get an even better definition at Google Earth. We are in no shortage on maps and material from the Kalkriese site; the special issue on "Arminius' Masterstroke" is available online at a good price, with a really nice map opening the article by Adrian Murdoch; on an open access basis, is still think Jona Lendering's page (already linked by Melvadius) is by far the best. Here is an interesting Discussion that included Prof. Lendering; the following quotation, based in his book "De randen van de aarde" is pure gold: Q: "... I wonder if anyone can give me an idea of the size of the forest itself?" A: "There was no forest. "Saltus" has always been mistranslated. It means "passage" (between the hills and the bog). This is confirmed by pollen analysis". It's a good example on how can archaeology give us a new light on our textual sources; in Lendering's own words "... if we ignore his geographical bias, Dio is a reliable author". That's indeed a great "if". Personally, I agree that Arminius was a nice strategist, but mostly for his post-Teutoburg campaigns; the disaster of the Kalkriese "forest" was mostly explained by the naivety of Varus and the carelessness of his legionaries; there's a priori no reason why Viriathus or Vercingetoryx wouldn't have been able to do the same, given of course the case that Galba or Caesar (and their respective legions) had been as gullible as Varus and the XVII, XVIII & XIX Legiones. Edited September 15, 2009 by sylla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGolomb Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 So New Ulm, Minnesota has a strong German Heritage and the Hermann Monument. You can read all about them here. Last weekend they celebrated the 2,000th anniversary of the Battle of Teutoburg and below is the agenda of events. One of the marquee activities is the "Cherusci Breakfast" which includes (I'm unsure of the historical accuracy of the meal itself): Costumed waitstaff serving: Battle Biscuits & Gravy Or Thusnelda's Scrambled Eggs & Hermann Ham Both served with Black Forest Fruit Salad Coffee and Juice Choice: $7.00 or Combo: $10.00 credit to the Adrian Murdoch blog for pointing this out Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday September 17, 18, 19, 20, 2009 Area civic leaders and businesses are planning a special celebration to mark the 2,000th anniversary of the Battle of Teutoburg Forest. Make Plans to Join Us! Learn about Hermann (Arminius) and his courageous fight to free Germania from Rome's legions. Discover why "Hermann the German" appears in the most unexpected places throughout our city. Tour the monument & interpretive center and immerse yourself in the rich history New Ulm has to offer. New Ulm is truly a city of Charm and Tradition! Weekend Festival: 2,000th Anniversary Celebration release of Hermann's Brew in cans with Hermann's Victory Logo Memorabilia & Collector's items: buttons, steins, postcards, T-shirts, sweatshirts, playing cards, cozies Hermann's Victory Committee 2009 City of New Ulm - c/o Mayor Albrecht, P.O. Box 636, New Ulm, MN USA 56073 All Events FREE except (A)=small admission charge Food & drink available at family prices Thursday, September 17, 2009 * 9:00 a.m. -7:30 p.m. Hermann Monument Tours (Button Event) * 10:00 a.m.-4:00 p.m. Brown County Historical Society-All exhibits open(A) Popcorn Wagon 10:00-3:00 * 5:00 p.m.-7:00 p.m. Dedication of New Fence & Paver Walkway- Hermann Monument * 7:00 p.m. - ? Dignitary Welcome Reception- Holiday Inn Friday, September 18, 2009 * 9:00 a.m.-7:30 p.m. Hermann Monument Tours (Button Event) * 10:00 a.m.-4:00 p.m. Brown County Historical Society - All exhibits open (A)Popcorn Wagon 10:00-3:00 * 10:00 a.m.-4:00 p.m. Hermann Art Show - Wanda Gag House (free will offering) * 3:00-9:00 p.m. Food & Drink- Hermann Heights Park * 7:00 p.m.- 9:30 p.m. Music: Wendinger Band * 6:00 p.m.-10:00 p.m. Grand Banquet with Visiting Dignitaries: Turner Hall -Tickets-SOLD OUT! Saturday, September 19, 2009 * 7:00 a.m.-10:00 a.m. "Cherusci Battle" Breakfast- Oakwood United Methodist Church (*see details left column) * 8:30 a.m.-7:30 p.m. Shuttle: Oakwood Parking, Hermann Heights, Chamber of Commerce, (Sponsored by Gislason & Hunter) * 9:00 a.m.-7:30 p.m. Hermann Monument Tours (Button Event) * 9:00 a.m. 5K Fun Run -Vogel Fieldhouse * 10:00 a.m. Children's Sprints -Harman Park * 9:30 a.m -11:30 a.m. German-Roman Conflict Academic Symposium Sponsored by Martin Luther College in Auditorium, Featuring Dr. Hans-Friedrich Mueller and Dr. James Booker * 10:00 a.m.-3:00 p.m. Brown County Historical Society - All exhibits open (A)Popcorn Wagon 10:00-3:00 * 10:00 a.m.-4:00 p.m. Hermann's Battle Diorama - Vogel Fieldhouse -Two Hermann's Battle presentations hourly (limited occupancy) * 10:00 a.m.-4:00 p.m. Hermann Art Show-Wanda Gag House (free will offering) * 11:00 a.m.-4:00 p.m. Festival with Traditional New Ulm German Music * 11:00 a.m.- Food & Drink- Steinhauser Park * Noon: New Ulm Battery Shoot - Hermann Heights Park * 12:30 p.m. Disc Golf Tournament - Nehl's Park (A) * 1:30p.m.-3:30 p.m. "Hermann, a Discussion" By New Ulm Public High School- at Martin Luther College Auditorium * Afternoon: German Car Show - 100+ vehicles-St. Paul's School Athletic Field * 1:00 p.m.-4:00 p.m. Historic Military Displays from 9 A.D. to 1863 to 2009- Harman Park * Afternoon- Roman Legion Camp & Battle Reenactment Preparation Legio XIIII GMV-"Gemina Martia Vitrix" and X- Harman Park * 5:00 p.m. Legion Battle Reenactment -Harman Park (*see article in left column for details * 4:00 p.m.-7:00 p.m. - Bockfest Boys Steinhauser Park * 7:00 p.m.-11:00 p.m. Jonah & the Whales - Steinhauser Park * Dusk: "Hermann's Thunderous Fireworks" over Hermann Monument (Sponsored by Gislason & Hunter, New Ulm Telecom, City of New Ulm) Sunday, September 20, 2009 * 9:00 a.m.-7:30 p.m. Hermann Monument Tours (Button Event) * 11:00 a.m.-2:00 p.m. Hermann Art Show-Wanda Gag House (Free will offering) * 12:30 -2:00 p.m. Grand Parade 75+ units-North State and Third North Streets * 2:00 p.m.-4:00 p.m. Brown County Historical Society -All exhibits open (A) * 2:00 p.m.-6:00 p.m. Original German Band; New Ulm Municipal Band & Festival Food & Drink Hermann Heights Park . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylla Posted September 22, 2009 Report Share Posted September 22, 2009 So New Ulm, Minnesota has a strong German Heritage and the Hermann Monument. You can read all about them here. Last weekend they celebrated the 2,000th anniversary of the Battle of Teutoburg and below is the agenda of events. One of the marquee activities is the "Cherusci Breakfast" which includes (I'm unsure of the historical accuracy of the meal itself): ...Or Thusnelda's Scrambled Eggs & Hermann Ham... credit to the Adrian Murdoch blog for pointing this out Talking about living history; a nice example of people embracing their cultural heritage. Thusnelda was of course the unfortunate wife of Arminius. Undoubtedly one of the most conspicuous German-Americans: Dwight David Eisenhower: (1890-1969) 34th President of the United States (1953-1961) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tribunicus Potestus Posted October 8, 2011 Report Share Posted October 8, 2011 Even if the III Reich was a paramount example of the misguided chauvinistic use of a distorted past, that should be considered a universal lesson, effectively adressed to all humanity and hardly only to the Germans. Obviously, calling Arminius a "German" in the modern gentilic sense would be as anachronic and absurd as calling "Turkish" Herodotus, "Italian" Archimedes or "Tunisian" Augustine and Hannibal. Is there a tentative parallel in the way the BNP seem to hero worship Boudica for giving the Roman Invaders a good kick where it hurts (Colchester)? Does anyone else see the irony that the ancestors of the (presumably predominantly Anglo-Saxon) BNP where likely the ones that kicked Boudica's Celtic descendants out of the country? That kind of irony is par for the course on this side of the atlantic. Buffalo nickel anyone? I could spend all night with a list of such things. But I will spare you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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