JGolomb Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 (edited) Vanished Persian army said found in desert Here's the associated video. Fun story that perhaps validates this tale from Herodotus: According to Herodotus (484-425 B.C.), Cambyses, the son of Cyrus the Great, sent 50,000 soldiers from Thebes to attack the Oasis of Siwa and destroy the oracle at the Temple of Amun. Alexander the Great had famously sought legitimization of his rule from the oracle of Amun in 332 B.C., but according to legend, the oracle would have predicted the death of Cambyses. After walking for seven days in the desert, the army got to an "oasis," which historians believe was El-Kharga. After they left, they were never seen again. "A wind arose from the south, strong and deadly, bringing with it vast columns of whirling sand, which entirely covered up the troops and caused them wholly to disappear," wrote Herodotus. As no trace of the hapless warriors has ever be found, scholars began to dismiss the story as a fanciful tale. Edited November 9, 2009 by JGolomb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmo Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 That would make a great movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGolomb Posted November 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 That would make a great movie. Kosmo - good instincts. Here's some additional backstory and a piece of a documentary about the finding. Quite an archaeological adventure - and some terrific "moments of discovery". Story- The quest for Cambyses' lost army Short Video- The Lost Army Of Cambyses These are different than what I posted yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryaxis Hecatee Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 The news is indeed awe inspiring. This is really what I'd call the past coming back to life and should this news be confirmed in the following weeks then we'd have a great discovery ! Now I can only wonder what awaits an archeological team under the sand for if they are that many men under the sand we could be looking at the biggest ancient weapons trove in history, even if persian forces were more lightly armored than most mediterannean forces and a lot of the troops must have been light infantry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylla Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Offending post deleted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryaxis Hecatee Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Indeed we don't know yet how many peoples are in this mass grave, and their might very well be more than one lost troop in the history of the area. Still I don't think they were that many persian among thoses and the chances are good that this is the lost army. Maybe not all 50k of them, if they ever were so many, but a significant part of them. What information has been given on the web is not enough to conclude with any certainty that this lot of corpses are persians but the fact that theses finds are in fact some years old means that the few thing they did find have probably been well analysed so their must be some confidence in the identification... still you're right to be cautious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvadius Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Indeed we don't know yet how many peoples are in this mass grave, and their might very well be more than one lost troop in the history of the area. Still I don't think they were that many persian among thoses and the chances are good that this is the lost army. Maybe not all 50k of them, if they ever were so many, but a significant part of them. What information has been given on the web is not enough to conclude with any certainty that this lot of corpses are persians but the fact that theses finds are in fact some years old means that the few thing they did find have probably been well analysed so their must be some confidence in the identification... still you're right to be cautious. I would also add a note of caution here. Although I haven't been able to access the video so far, the slideshow seems to indicate a 'mass burial' rather than a column of soldiers overcome by a sandstorm. If this is a mass burial it seem to indicate that contrary to Heroditus (not necessarily unknown) at least some evidence of the army was subsequently found and/ or earlier casulties of the storm were buried while others were still capable of doing so. A lot of the answers to precisely who the casulties were and when they come from will probably depend on the accurate plotting of the human remains along with any associated finds and subsequent analysis. I am however a bit suprised at the amount of degredation seen from the 'bronze' weapon in the slideshow. This is an apparently arid area where I probably wouldn't have expected to see so much degredation, even over several millenia, so I intend asking a couple of experienced metallurgists about that on an upcoming visit to my local archeological research laboratory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGolomb Posted November 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Mel - terrific insight. Looking forward to reading about what you uncover. -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryaxis Hecatee Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 The bronze weapon also surprised me at first, but then I re-read the information available and it looks like the place is from time to time dug out by the wind and then covered back, so it could be that the sand grains borne by the wind did indeed damage the tools. As for the way the remains are found, I'm not sure we can give that much precise meaning to "mass burial" as used in the articles. But the fact that Herodotus could speak of a storm that destroyed the army might mean enough peoples survived to tell the story, so it could be that some kind of rescue expedition found bodies and buried them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylla Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 The bronze weapon also surprised me at first, but then I re-read the information available and it looks like the place is from time to time dug out by the wind and then covered back, so it could be that the sand grains borne by the wind did indeed damage the tools. As for the way the remains are found, I'm not sure we can give that much precise meaning to "mass burial" as used in the articles. But the fact that Herodotus could speak of a storm that destroyed the army might mean enough peoples survived to tell the story, so it could be that some kind of rescue expedition found bodies and buried them. Offending post deleted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvadius Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 The bronze weapon also surprised me at first, but then I re-read the information available and it looks like the place is from time to time dug out by the wind and then covered back, so it could be that the sand grains borne by the wind did indeed damage the tools. As for the way the remains are found, I'm not sure we can give that much precise meaning to "mass burial" as used in the articles. But the fact that Herodotus could speak of a storm that destroyed the army might mean enough peoples survived to tell the story, so it could be that some kind of rescue expedition found bodies and buried them. I have now spoken to a couple of archaeometallurgists about the bronze dagger, which is shown in the photographs and it seems we are all wrong . If the damage had been due to erosion then the dagger would have shown distinct signs of rounding rather than the extensive 'etching' which has occured. This type of 'etching' can occur in any burial and is part of the 'normal' process involving [to quote their description] 'bodily fluids'. In fact they expressed suprise that it didn't show more signs of 'etching', as they have seen much worse from burials. If the reports are correct and a sword in good condition was found in proximity to the same burials then it probably had not come into as much contact with 'bodily fluids' as the dagger had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGolomb Posted November 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 I'm taking a page from the Sylla Book of Skepticism here... This full article provides a very long and detailed review of Cambyses related discoveries. I'm highlighting some of the key points... (referring to the youtube video I posted above)While watching this, I had a very uncomfortable feeling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvadius Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 I'm taking a page from the Sylla Book of Skepticism here... <SNIP> I think it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGolomb Posted December 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Politics are starting to surround this discovery: Iran Urges UNESCO to Step in Over Lost Persian Army in Egyptian Desert Remember the 'groundbreaking discovery' of Cambyses' lost Persian army a few weeks back, in the Western Desert of Egypt? Almost as soon as it had been announced, Zahi Hawass' Supreme Council of Antiquities were all over it, rejecting the Castiglioni brothers' claims they'd found the legendary fleet near Siwa Oasis. Yet any doubts as to the brothers' credibility have been lost on Iranian officials, who have branded Dr Hawass' rejection of the discovery as politically motivated, and have urged UNESCO to step in to save the army's remains. The request by Iran's Cultural Heritage, Handicrafts and Toursim Organisation (ICHHTO) was made yesterday. Spokesman Hassan Mohseni tells Fars news agency: "Egypt's chief archeologist Zahi Hawass has recently rejected the discovery of the army in his personal weblog due to political pressure." It's an odd twist in a growing saga which promises to run for some time yet. Various cyber-sleuths have succeeded only in shrouding the story in even more mystery, digging up conflicting claims from sources as far back as 2004. Cambyses' 50,000 men are said to have vanished in a huge sandstorm some 2,500 years ago, whilst on their way to Siwa's Temple of Amun. The Castiglioni brothers have supposedly found large numbers of human bones and Persian artefacts just outside the remote oasis. Yet almost immediately the web was awash with comments, rumour and controversy thanks to the SCA's response to the 'find'. "I need to inform the public that recent reports published in newspapers, news agencies and TV news announcing that twin brothers Angelo and Alfredo Castiglioni have unearthed the remains of the Persian army of Cambyses, are unfounded and misleading," wrote Dr Hawass on his personal blog. We'll keep you posted on the latest developments as soon as they happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylla Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 ... Spokesman Hassan Mohseni tells Fars news agency: "Egypt's chief archeologist Zahi Hawass has recently rejected the discovery of the army in his personal weblog due to political pressure."... Offending post deleted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.