Death of Germanicus

[Germanicus Nero]

"Whether Tiberius is remembered as a depraved pervert who reined using murder and mayhem and allowed the rise of Praetorian influence, or as an effective administrator with Republican leanings, the true result of Tiberius rule was the ironic total destruction of the Republican ideal. While Augustus allowed a facade of Senatorial governing to continue to exist, under Tiberius, that fa

[Primus Pilus]

I really suggest you read more than Suetonius, he is not exactly lauded by scholars for his accuracy. (Of course, none of the ancient authors generally are, but Suetonius especially so.)

 

I think the least accused of propogandist leanings (of the well known names) is Dio Cassius. On a personal note I've always enjoyed the styles of Livy and Tacitus.

 

EDIT: I need to rephrase... Suetonius is often considered impartial (from a perspective of not over glorifying Rome and Roman achievement) but he is akin to modern tabloid writers in regards to the use of rumor, innuendo, etc. I understand that Suetonius had access to some material that no longer exists (such as the personal letters of Augustus, etc.) but his reasoning for various events makes little sense from a logical standpoint. He seems perfectly willing to take any possible rumor and report it as absolute fact in order to belittle or praise the subject matter.

[Germanicus Nero]

Like I said, provide a source saying Tiberius probably didn't kill Germanicus and I'll read it. The link from above did not. Seems odd, the obvious damage Tiberius did to the Imperial family. Yet you think it's impossible he would kill his most worrisome rival.

[Primus Pilus]

I never said impossible, only that it seems unlikely and illogical to me. I can't speak for how Clodius feels.

 

Like I said, provide a source saying Tiberius probably didn't kill Germanicus and I'll read it. The link from above did not.

 

 

By the way, the link provided clearly was in reference to the book available on that page from amazon, and not the actual text on the page.

[Germanicus]

I think you guys are reaching the "agree to disagree" stage. Personaly, there are two reasons in particular that make me think Tiberius was not responsible:- 1 - Germanicus was offered the purple during the mutiny he put down in Pannonia, and refused. He even forged a letter from Tiberius giving in to the Legions demands, essentially promoting Tiberius. 2- Tiberius granted him a triumph, the last to ever be celebrated by a general who was not also emperor. If Tiberius was worried by Germanicus popularity, why offer the triumph ? Because Tiberius was setting Germanicus up as heir. I would have done the same thing - the people love him, he's refused already to try to steal my crown, and he's got 5 healthy children, and he's a good deal younger than me. If Augustus passed on any information to Tiberius, you can bet the importance of a popular heir for stability was one of them.

[Augur]

P. Clodius/Primus Pilus, gentlemen please do not rank me among the many Tiberius bashers, quite the opposite. I have always taken Tacitus

[Germanicus Nero]

Again provide a source that says he probably didn't kill Germanicus. The argument still seems to consist of one opinion vs another and it's hardly just Tactitus and Suetonius that villafies Tiberius.

[Germanicus Nero]

"http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0003912.html"

 

"Roman general. He was the adopted son of the emperor Tiberius and married the emperor Augustus

[Germanicus Nero]

"Germanicus fulfilled his mandate to display a Roman presence in the area and to settle internal affairs. In the client kingdom of Armenia, he crowned Artaxias, who was a friendly ally, and installed the first Roman governor of the new province of Cappadoccia. [[16]] In AD 19, he left Asia Minor and visited Egypt. He went, it was said, in response to famine but the trip included a sightseeing tour, rather in the spirit of his initial journey to the East. He was warmly received when he moved unpretentiously among the populace and especially when he opened the doors of the grain storehouses. He was displaying civilitas (citizen-like behavior) and liberalitas (generosity), virtues associated with imperial largesse. He was upstaging Tiberius. He was either oblivious to the effect of his behavior or he was intentionally testing the waters. His action was aggravated by the fact that all men of senatorial rank were strictly forbidden to set foot in Egypt, which was under the emperor's personal control. [[17]] His visit and his grandstanding there, if arguably appropriate for the 'almost-emperor' that he was, understandably irked the actual emperor."

 

How could you not love this guy =)

 

http://www.roman-emperors.org/germanicus.htm

[Germanicus Nero]

"Tacitus gives the fullest report of the trial, and his account has been proved essentially accurate by a recently discovered bronze tablet which gives the official version of the trial and its result. [[24]] The issue was indeed treason, not poison, and Tiberius was concerned to appear impartial. Tacitus departs from the official version with the addition of a rumor that Piso had in his possession a letter from Tiberius instructing him in regard to Germanicus and that he intended to show it to the senate and implicate Tiberius in what had taken place in Syria. He further implies that Piso's death might not have been a suicide but an execution to prevent the disclosure. In a sense the bronze tablet corroborates Tacitus' innuendo, for the careful and detailed report that was set up in every legionary camp in the Empire shows the unpopular Tiberius on the defensive and confirms that the trial was a crisis for him. Tiberius now faced a truly difficult rival. Dead, perhaps martyred, Germanicus remained a formidable force in Roman politics. "

 

Tiberuis Varo! Give me back my Germanicus!!!

[Primus Pilus]

I personally can't find any reason to continue arguing this point. I'm just going to suggest some books to give you some more opinions. My views are based upon my own research/conclusions, not necessarily a single line written in any one book (especially an encyclopedia style entry).

 

Tiberius the Politician by B. Levick

Tiberius Caesar by G. Baker

Tiberius Caesar by D. Shotter

Age of Augustus by W. Eck

Livia: First Lady of Imperial Rome by A. Barrett

 

Greek and Roman Historians: Information and Misinformation a wonderful look into the biases and propoganda of ancient authors. by Michael Grant.

 

There have also been suggestions that Livia poisoned Augustus, yet this is widely discredited. Its important to understand that these accusations are nearly provable or unprovable. You are absolutely right, they are just opinion.

[Germanicus Nero]

Cut and paste an exceprt for me that suggest Tiberius needed Germanicus? My views are based on written text, many encylopedia style entires, every movie ever made about Ancient Rome that dealt with Tiberius and a whole host of other sources I'm sure I can't even recall atm.

[Primus Pilus]

Here's the point... your excerpts don't prove anything either. Notice that nobody commits to declaring Tiberius as Germanicus' murderer, only that he may have played a part. It's 2,000 years of repeated propoganda, but nobody knows for sure. I even indicate that Tiberius is implicated in my own brief biography. I don't deny what the ancients said either, only that the theory doesn't make alot of sense.

 

You can quote all the excerpts you like, but it proves nothing, just as we cannot prove that Tiberius didn't kill him. Besides, if you read the descriptions of the nature of Piso's supposed poisoning, you may find that its very shrouded in mysticism and 'evil spirits'. Tacitus doesn't even claim that he knows the truth, only that he thinks Tiberius was involved.

 

Either way, its pretty pointless really, this could be argued for another 2,000 years and nobody can prove it.

[Germanicus Nero]

Aye it could, my point was that I've read written text from someone around that period. I choose to believe that it was a widespread scandal at that Romans of the time probably did wonder if Tiberius did kill Germanicus. You can't provide anything even remotely close to gossip to suggest Tiberius needed Germanicus. I formed my opinion from something I read written by someone of the age. Where did you form your opinion from and links to text I don't yet have do me no good.

[Primus Pilus]

Agreed, that's why I suggested entire books to read. They provide a different perspective that can only be truly understood by reading the entire thing rather than a few passages, is all I'm saying.