Novosedoff Posted November 6, 2021 Report Share Posted November 6, 2021 Hello there, I though it would be interesting to discuss the topic given the widely available Google search statistics 🙂 Indeed if one googles by keywords "how many christian saints are there?" Google returns the answer: "There are more than 10,000 saints recognized by the Roman Catholic Church". If we do a similar search by substituting the word "martyrs" in place of "saints", then "computer says" .. The Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) says 900,000 Christians have been 'martyred' in the last decade, equating to 90,000 a year and one every six minutes. So now we can compare how the numbers stand against what we know from the early ages of Christianity. Here is the first list to investigate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_early_Christian_saints It can be seen that the number of early Christian saints from the 1st century AD equals 145 (out of 1064) individuals. If we check the list of early Christian martyrs from below link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_martyrs it can be seen that the number of martyrs in the 1st century AD equals just 17 (excluding obviously the Holy Innocents of Bethlehem who are not known by their names) So can we say that it was way more likely for a person back in early ages to become a Christian saint than a martyr compared to how it works today? 🙂   Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar novus Posted November 6, 2021 Report Share Posted November 6, 2021 (edited) May be some ambiguity on definition of a martyr. I faintly recall a professor characterizing many christian deaths as like modern suicide bombers, that is killed more by their own agency. The Romans might give christians every out to avoid punishment for their "crime", which was refused. Like just go thru motions of traditions without even needing to believe in them, but many christians seemed drawn to being martyred. The professor depicted some Romans dreading having to bring numerous christians to "justice". Digression alert: This reminds me of similarly ambiguous types of suicide. Who is and isn't a kamikaze in the case of admiral Ugaki, who didn't know how to fly. He heard the emperor declare surrender on the radio, so asked the pilots he commanded to fly him as a passenger into an enemy ship. No ships were recorded as attacked that day, and in fact his diary depicts the kamikaze gig as quite safe under his command. This because most of their ramshackle aircraft would leak oil or otherwise fail halfway to a target and glide to a nearby island or friendly ship. P.S. coincidental to your profile. Can you believe Dmitri Shostakovich jr once phoned me with a blur of Russian words? I remembered the words for goodbye "do svidaniya", which he thought was a funny response. Turned out he had met a relative of mine and was skeptical of their claim I had studied russian. I was invited to Maxim's house once later on, and saw him conduct. Edited November 6, 2021 by caesar novus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novosedoff Posted November 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2021 Well, it could be attributed to a general misconception how the Christian story of martyrs or suiciders first appeared. It was apparently written under Pope Mark's guidance in the 4th century AD when Constantine made Christianity legal: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Mark So by that time it had been quite a while since the described events actually took place. It's almost like if tomorrow's issue of FT is gonna be printed in 2350 by nostalgic reminiscence of our remote descendants trying to recollect the way market moved 3 centuries ago in the obituaries. The way it's gonna be written oughtta be very distorted. The scenario of the past market movements would be elaborated as a series of constant market crashes, where every other Pope of the 1st century AD is killed and every next pope knowing of the sorry lot of his predecessors consciously chooses the same destiny of mature kamikaze robot. As editors in chief what would we want a casual reader to know? Do we want our future readers to envisage the picture of an early age Pope sitting by the bath and so drunk that almost unable to move a limb, so he has to wave it to the nearby slave girl to approach with a vessel to urinate or throw up.. Sorry, that's not the case. PS. To be honest, Novus, I ain't so much adherent of the old classical music schools. I am more a funk or progrock type of guy also keen on modern electronic music like trip-hop. But I do pay tribute to your ages. Btw back to our profiles, I quite like the virile avatar image of yours, Novus. This is Caracalla, I suppose. Why would you pick up the one out of 70 other? Why wouldn't you choose an early Christian saint, if I don't mind me asking? 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novosedoff Posted November 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2021 PPS Btw Novus, did you watch this movie? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_(2008_film) Although it doesn't have Shostakovich music ...  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar novus Posted November 7, 2021 Report Share Posted November 7, 2021 (edited) I don't know which narrative is more truthful, like for example Diocletian's treatment of Christians. One lecture went thru his long proclamation to meticulously give accused Christians a chance to repent and be released. Others demonize him for aggravated ruthlessness. It used to be common for attacks on Roman ethics to be a proxy for attacks on current western culture. But I think that utopian demographic is now redirected onto a coordinated elitist movement for woke-ness, such as pollutes nearly all television in the US now. Maybe I should change my provocative avatar to one of those emperors who were depicted as calm and cogitating which is so admirable to me vs egoistic or threatening like mr. bootikins. I think they had switched over from realism to stereotypical stern propaganda then. However I don't want to appear as a wimpy Marcus A., who mentally fiddled while his demonic son burned with evil. As for music I have no affinity for classical, except I like the tuneup chaos. The internet has allowed me to get tired thru overplay of all my niche interests. Maybe I will revive a music youtube thread here, with Indian santoor music for instance. The Shostakovich episode was memorable since it is so unlikely from my extremely remote and unworldly background. I have an even more surprising personal connection re: Mick Jagger, so with the recent death of a bandmember I am reviewing early Stones concerts on youtube. Not to admire the music so much but the human element becomes tangible. They cultivated an edgy theme sort of like various lookalike contrived Caracalla busts, but I get the background drama trying to tame bandmembers, public image, etc. Edited November 7, 2021 by caesar novus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novosedoff Posted November 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2021 Ok, I think I am finally getting the hint as some of your words ring a bell for me, as you say in English. Glad to see you here too. Reviving a youtube music thread here would be a good idea - I will definitely contribute. I am currently techno-nostalgic of 90s, but also follow the Dirty Art Club with Madwreck, as well as Brock Berrigan, all of whom are from the US, I think But even if you are up to stage here a sequel to Muppets Most Wanted, I may take a role in the crowd from the Gulag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPDfnzCEgaQ The statistics of social unrest of the last 10 years proves that we all may end up in Gulag very soon (see pic below), no matter where we reside Diocletian's innovative policy of restrictions on movements for colons, which contributed a lot to medieval serfdom, seems just in tune with all that, and  I am sure the death of new 3,500 martyrs is to be awaited   Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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