Suetonius

[Pertinax]

This 6 disc CD set has arrived in my contubernium today.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lives-Twelve-Caesa...2647&sr=8-3

 

On listening to disc 1 , I am very impressed by Jacobi's excellent diction. I will report fully in due course.

[M. Porcius Cato]

I've ordered the audiobook of Suetonius to download onto my iPod. Should provide hours of fun and lots of ideas...

 

Yes, the Jacoby reading is much cheaper as a download. You can get it either from publisher Naxos or from Audible.com, where one can hear a sample of Jacoby reading from the life of Caesar.

 

Another, more expensive, version is also available through the iTunes Music Store.

[Flavia Gemina]

I received this today and started listening straightaway. I have to say I was a little disappointed. It's very abridged. Titus only gets 10 minutes! *wah!*

 

Also I don't agree with the pronunciation. Someone told Jacobi to pronounce 'Caenis' as 'SEE-niss' rather than 'KAI-niss' as I would pronounce it. And he pronounces 'Quaestor' as 'Keester'. A very unfortunate choice...

 

Still, it's Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus...

 

Flavia

[Nephele]

Also I don't agree with the pronunciation. Someone told Jacobi to pronounce 'Caenis' as 'SEE-niss' rather than 'KAI-niss' as I would pronounce it. And he pronounces 'Quaestor' as 'Keester'. A very unfortunate choice...

 

I heard that "kwee-ster" pronunciation, too, in the sample reading from the link MPC provided, and it made me cringe. I noticed Jacobi also pronounced "praetor" as "pree-ter" in that sampling, and "aedile" as "ee-dail".

 

We had another thread going on the "ae" pronunciation here. As a Latin teacher, FG, your thoughts on this?

 

-- Nephele

[Flavia Gemina]

He actually says 'keester' rather than 'kweester' at one point!

 

I go for the AY pronunciation for 'ai' or 'ae'. So in my glossary at the end of my books -- called 'Aristo's Scroll' I give the pronunciation of Baiae as BYE-eye. But I don't suggest W for V

 

a. because I think it sounds stupid!

b. because the V pronunciation helps kids realize the root word, e.g. vigiles linked to 'vigilant' etc...

c. because -- in Ostia at least -- graffiti and mosaics suggest they pronounced V hard, e.g. 'Bita' is written instead of 'Vita'...

 

So I would pronounce

quaestor as KWY-store

aedile as EYE-deel

praetor as PRY-tore

verna as VUR-nuh

 

Vale! (with a hardish 'V')

 

Flavia

[Nephele]

He actually says 'keester' rather than 'kweester' at one point!

 

Yikes! I'm glad I missed that one.

 

I go for the AY pronunciation for 'ai' or 'ae'. So in my glossary at the end of my books -- called 'Aristo's Scroll' I give the pronunciation of Baiae as BYE-eye. But I don't suggest W for V

 

a. because I think it sounds stupid!

b. because the V pronunciation helps kids realize the root word, e.g. vigiles linked to 'vigilant' etc...

c. because -- in Ostia at least -- graffiti and mosaics suggest they pronounced V hard, e.g. 'Bita' is written instead of 'Vita'...

 

I rather prefer hearing the "ae" pronounced "eye", too. I also prefer "Caesar" as "Kaisar", despite the modern-day Germanic associations with that particular pronunciation. Or, perhaps, even because of it, given Caesar's predilection for world domination.

 

Same with the nomen of "Caecilius" which (to me) sounds silly as "see-sil-i-us". The exception I think is when that "ae" comes at the beginning of a word, as in "Aeneas" which (to me, anyway) sounds odd pronounced "eye-nee-as". Although "ee-nee-as" sounds equally odd, and so I opt for "ih-nee-as".

 

And, yes, the "W" pronunciation for "V" makes me cringe to hear, as it sounds like an affectation, or (worse) conscious baby talk, or (worst of all) a Barbara Walters impression: Wallay, Wictor, Wizzygoths, etc. I hadn't even thought of using the hard V pronunciation to aid students in making connections with our English words of Latin derivation, but that makes good sense.

 

-- Nephele

[Primus Pilus]

I also prefer "Caesar" as "Kaisar", despite the modern-day Germanic associations with that particular pronunciation.

 

Which does he actually use? I'd assume that those who would take the time to listen to an audio book of Suetonius would likely already know that the modern English Cee-Zer is wrong, but it could potentially cause some confusion to use a more proper Latin pronunciation.

 

A minor thing I know, but just curious.

[Nephele]

I also prefer "Caesar" as "Kaisar", despite the modern-day Germanic associations with that particular pronunciation.

 

Which does he actually use? I'd assume that those who would take the time to listen to an audio book of Suetonius would likely already know that the modern English Cee-Zer is wrong, but it could potentially cause some confusion to use a more proper Latin pronunciation.

 

A minor thing I know, but just curious.

 

Jacobi pronounces it: Cee-Zer. Yes, English ears would be more familiar with that pronunciation -- I was just noting my personal preference. I dislike "Cee-Zer" as much as I dislike "Kwee-ster".

 

But, I don't really think that hearing Caesar pronounced as "Kaisar" would be too confusing, as English ears are also familiar with the word "kaiser".

 

-- Nephele

[Primus Pilus]

But, I don't really think that hearing Caesar pronounced as "Kaisar" would be too confusing, as English ears are also familiar with the word "kaiser".

 

-- Nephele

 

Yes, clearly the word is known... but the average buffoon probably doesn't know where it came from. Then again, the average buffoon is probably not listening to Suetonius.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Jacoby's pronunciation of Latin words in an English context shouldn't conform to the pronunciation of Latin words in a Latin context. English is a hodgepodge of borrowings, so much so that only a linguist or polyglot could stick to all the original pronunciations.

 

And English-speakers aren't even alone in this. Speaking to an Italian woman, she had no idea who /sisero/ was, let alone /kikero/, but after describing him at some length, she said "Ahh! /chich-eh-roh-neh/".

 

If Jacoby had called Caesar "Kaiser", Cicero "Kikero", etc, it would have been an interesting exercise in classical pronunciation, but it wouldn't have been a good reading of the English translation of Suetonius.

 

If purists want to practice classical pronunciation, they should begin by repeating De gustibus non disputandum est five times.

[Nephele]

But, I don't really think that hearing Caesar pronounced as "Kaisar" would be too confusing, as English ears are also familiar with the word "kaiser".

 

-- Nephele

 

Yes, clearly the word is known... but the average buffoon probably doesn't know where it came from. Then again, the average buffoon is probably not listening to Suetonius.

 

Good point!

 

-- Nephele

[docoflove1974]

Jacoby's pronunciation of Latin words in an English context shouldn't conform to the pronunciation of Latin words in a Latin context. English is a hodgepodge of borrowings, so much so that only a linguist or polyglot could stick to all the original pronunciations.

 

And English-speakers aren't even alone in this. Speaking to an Italian woman, she had no idea who /sisero/ was, let alone /kikero/, but after describing him at some length, she said "Ahh! /chich-eh-roh-neh/".

 

If Jacoby had called Caesar "Kaiser", Cicero "Kikero", etc, it would have been an interesting exercise in classical pronunciation, but it wouldn't have been a good reading of the English translation of Suetonius.

 

If purists want to practice classical pronunciation, they should begin by repeating De gustibus non disputandum est five times.

 

And this is a very good point. My first Latin teacher was a hard-core classicist; this, added to my linguistics background, lends me to use a Latin pronunciation...usually. I still say [ju-li-us si-zar] and others, including often saying [si-se-row]; same with the Spanish or Italian pronunciation, as the situation warrants. But that's in normal, English conversation. If I was teaching a Classical Literature course, I probably would use the Latin pronunciation. And when I'm teaching my student in Spanish, and want to model the original Latin etymon, I use a Latin pronunciation. When singing a song in Latin, I use the Latin pronunciation.

 

As for [w] or [v] for 'v', I always use [w]. As far as I've read, it's the correct pronunciation; besides, it's historically linguistically correct for the various results in the Romance descendants. But I don't mind being the odd person!

[caldrail]

There's a point about roman pronounciation that interests me, because modern english borrows from latin and yet the pronounciation varies from word to word. Now I know english can be a lazy language and the japanese I worked for insisted that it was a bitch to learn compared to some, so is it possible that latin words varied in pronounciation, especially with regional dialects, or was it really a case of getting it spot on like those sadistic public school teachers of old, given that latin only survived through the church and was not spoken as an everyday language for many centuries?

[docoflove1974]

There's a point about roman pronounciation that interests me, because modern english borrows from latin and yet the pronounciation varies from word to word. Now I know english can be a lazy language and the japanese I worked for insisted that it was a bitch to learn compared to some, so is it possible that latin words varied in pronounciation, especially with regional dialects, or was it really a case of getting it spot on like those sadistic public school teachers of old, given that latin only survived through the church and was not spoken as an everyday language for many centuries?

 

The answer is that it also varies. Those words which were borrowed into the language via academic routes *tend* to carry the same or similar pronunciation; this also varies depending on when it was borrowed. And in the case of English, not only do you have academic pursuits in play, but the fact that for many, many generations French was the language of the court, so there are Latin and Norman and French additions to the language at a higher register (aka not necessarily of the common folk). Many words of Romance origin are brought into the language during the Renaissance period--this is, after all, a 're-birth' of the Classical period!--from Latin, Greek, and various Romance languages (mostly Spanish and Italian); during the Age of Enlightenment more French is brought into English.

 

And as for pronunciation...well, a little of everything. For the academic/higher register words, often the process is that if the borrowed term sounds like it could fit into the borrowing language, then the pronunciation is kept, or is very close. This is primarily what happens in the English situation. Latin hard 'c' [ki, ke] were often re-interpreted as a soft 'c' [si, se]; 'v' was interpreted as a [v]--this is all based on how it was read, and therefore how the English-speaking person read and spoke what they saw. That's probably how things entered...as for how the populace analyzed and internalized the data is up for many interpretations.

[Flavia Gemina]

Of course for names like Caesar and Cicero, English-speakers have to pronounce them as they've come down to us, whether the pronunciation is correct or not.

 

I was querying Jacobi's pronunciation of names or words very few people are familiar with:

Caenis, quaestor, aedile, etc.

 

Couldn't he at least get those right?

 

Flavia