Germanicus' Death.

[Violentilla]

A good friend in another forum keeps making reference to the people being so angered by the death of Germanicus, that they destroyed statues of the gods in retaliation, as sort of a punishment to the gods.

 

I can find no mention of this, I did find something in Tacitus about the statues of Piso, but that is not what I'm looking for.

 

Anyone come across this?

 

Or really, any instance of the Roman people 'punishing' the gods when they have let them down? I'm looking for a correlation between this and the modern punishing of the saints done by Italians today.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Violentilla

[caldrail]

No, I don't remember anything of this gravity. I thought all the hostility was against people like Piso. I will certainly check this out.

[Primus Pilus]

No, I don't remember anything of this gravity. I thought all the hostility was against people like Piso. I will certainly check this out.

 

The accounts of Germanicus' death and the aftermath are quite detailed (Suetonius, Tacitus and Cassius Dio). Tacitus in particular mentions the destruction of Piso's statues...

 

Annals Book 3.14

 

On all points but one the defence broke down. That he had tampered with the soldiers, that his province had been at the mercy of the vilest of them, that he had even insulted his chief, he could not deny. It was only the charge of poisoning from which he seemed to have cleared himself. This indeed the prosecutors did not adequately sustain by merely alleging that at a banquet given by Germanicus, his food had been tainted with poison by the hands of Piso who sat next above him. It seemed absurd to suppose that he would have dared such an attempt among strange servants, in the sight of so many bystanders, and under Germanicus's own eyes. And, besides, the defendant offered his slaves to the torture, and insisted on its application to the attendants on that occasion. But the judges for different reasons were merciless, the emperor, because war had been made on a province, the Senate because they could not be sufficiently convinced that there had been no treachery about the death of Germanicus. At the same time shouts were heard from the people in front of the Senate House, threatening violence if he escaped the verdict of the Senators. They had actually dragged Piso's statues to the Gemonian stairs, and were breaking them in pieces, when by the emperor's order they were rescued and replaced. Piso was then put in a litter and attended by a tribune of one of the Praetorian cohorts, who followed him, so it was variously rumoured, to guard his person or to be his executioner.

 

Cassius Dio and Suetonius also intimate the despair of the people over Germanicus' death but don't mention the destruction of Piso's statues. Tacitus does not suggest the destruction of any statues other than Piso's.

[Violentilla]

No, I don't remember anything of this gravity. I thought all the hostility was against people like Piso. I will certainly check this out.

 

The accounts of Germanicus' death and the aftermath are quite detailed (Suetonius, Tacitus and Cassius Dio). Tacitus in particular mentions the destruction of Piso's statues...

 

Annals Book 3.14

 

On all points but one the defence broke down. That he had tampered with the soldiers, that his province had been at the mercy of the vilest of them, that he had even insulted his chief, he could not deny. It was only the charge of poisoning from which he seemed to have cleared himself. This indeed the prosecutors did not adequately sustain by merely alleging that at a banquet given by Germanicus, his food had been tainted with poison by the hands of Piso who sat next above him. It seemed absurd to suppose that he would have dared such an attempt among strange servants, in the sight of so many bystanders, and under Germanicus's own eyes. And, besides, the defendant offered his slaves to the torture, and insisted on its application to the attendants on that occasion. But the judges for different reasons were merciless, the emperor, because war had been made on a province, the Senate because they could not be sufficiently convinced that there had been no treachery about the death of Germanicus. At the same time shouts were heard from the people in front of the Senate House, threatening violence if he escaped the verdict of the Senators. They had actually dragged Piso's statues to the Gemonian stairs, and were breaking them in pieces, when by the emperor's order they were rescued and replaced. Piso was then put in a litter and attended by a tribune of one of the Praetorian cohorts, who followed him, so it was variously rumoured, to guard his person or to be his executioner.

 

Cassius Dio and Suetonius also intimate the despair of the people over Germanicus' death but don't mention the destruction of Piso's statues. Tacitus does not suggest the destruction of any statues other than Piso's.

 

Right, I found that part in Tacitus, I wanted to see if I was missing somethign somewhere else.

[Primus Pilus]

Right, I found that part in Tacitus, I wanted to see if I was missing somethign somewhere else.

 

Indeed. I only posted the exact quote for contextual purposes, so a passerby is able to see the detail for themselves.

 

In any case... no there seems to be nothing missing from ancient source texts, but that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't evidence of another sort. However, it would be terribly difficult to prove that statues were smashed in direct response to this particular event without some sort of written evidence (including inscriptions) in collaboration with any potential archaeological evidence.

[Nephele]

Or really, any instance of the Roman people 'punishing' the gods when they have let them down?

 

According to Suetonius, the Emperor Caligula was known to threaten the statue of the god Jupiter Capitolinus: ...in the daytime he would talk confidentially with Jupiter Capitolinus, now whispering and then in turn putting his ear to the mouth of the god, now in louder and even angry language; for he was heard to make the threat: "Lift me up, or I'll lift you."

(translated by J.C. Rolfe, Suetonius, Harvard University Press, 1920).

 

But then, Caligula was somewhat less than sane.

 

-- Nephele

[Violentilla]

Or really, any instance of the Roman people 'punishing' the gods when they have let them down?

 

According to Suetonius, the Emperor Caligula was known to threaten the statue of the god Jupiter Capitolinus: ...in the daytime he would talk confidentially with Jupiter Capitolinus, now whispering and then in turn putting his ear to the mouth of the god, now in louder and even angry language; for he was heard to make the threat: "Lift me up, or I'll lift you."

(translated by J.C. Rolfe, Suetonius, Harvard University Press, 1920).

 

But then, Caligula was somewhat less than sane.

 

-- Nephele

 

 

Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that!

 

Thanks!

[caldrail]

The only reference to statues directly concerned with Germanicus that I find is in tacitus's Annals, where here mentions that Marcus Valerius Messallinus and Aulus Caecina Severus wanted to erect a gold statue in his honour in the temple of mars, plus an altar of veangeance. Tiberius refused this on the grounds it was inappropriate. The public mood in the wake of the mans death is described as subdued rather than violent.

[Violentilla]

The only reference to statues directly concerned with Germanicus that I find is in tacitus's Annals, where here mentions that Marcus Valerius Messallinus and Aulus Caecina Severus wanted to erect a gold statue in his honour in the temple of mars, plus an altar of veangeance. Tiberius refused this on the grounds it was inappropriate. The public mood in the wake of the mans death is described as subdued rather than violent.

 

 

Thanks for looking. What exactly is an altar of vengeance? That sounds interesting.

[caldrail]

I would expect that a man who wished vengeance upon his enemies - personal or national - could pray or sacrifice at the altar for the gods to grant him his wish. This has roman precedent, as the buying of bad luck tokens was a feature of roman games.

[Faustus]

I would expect that a man who wished vengeance upon his enemies - personal or national - could pray or sacrifice at the altar for the gods to grant him his wish. This has roman precedent, as the buying of bad luck tokens was a feature of roman games.

 

 

I can't add much to this conversation with words, but here's an image that might interest you with an interpretation. This caught my eye in Time Magazine October 24, 1988 - a clipping:

 

(first the link to the painting - NOTE: You cannot link directly to the url on this server; you'll have to C&P to a seperate document so as to go to it indirectly ~~~ It's worth the trouble!)

 

http://www.abcgallery.com/P/poussin/poussin9.JPG

 

"Nicolas Poussin ~~~ THE DEATH OF GERMANICUS (1627-1628)

 

AD 19 poisoned -- so it was believed --- by a jealous Roman Governor. He soon became an archetype of the betrayed hero.

 

Poussin turns this incident into a tremendous oration on duty and continuity, overlaid with Christian allusions to the entombment of Jesus, whose life Germanicus' overlapped.

 

The hero lies dying beneath the frame of a blue curtain, which suggests both a temple pediment and a military tent. On the right are are his wife, women servants and little sons; on the left, his soldiers and officers. The common soldier on the far left weeps inarticulately, his grandly modeled back turned toward us. Next to him, a centurion in a billowing red cloak starts forward: grief galvanized to action in the present. Then a gold-armored pillar of a general in a blue cloak (adapted from an antique bas-relief) projects grief forward into the future by swearing an oath of revenge; Poussin hides the man's face to suggest that this is not a personal matter but one of history itself.

 

The target of this socially ascending wave of resolution is not only Germanicus (whose exhausted head on the pillow vividly predicts the style of G

[ASCLEPIADES]

I can't add much to this conversation with words,

Only a little more than four hundred words ... BTW, X-cellent commentary. You mean this Pic?

 

Edited September 21, 2007 by ASCLEPIADES