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Caesar CXXXVII

Bush and historians

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I can't believe you Americans actually voted that man into the White House...

 

To be fair, in 2000 they actually didnt, and in 2004 he got in by the narrowest of margins.

 

If not for the opponents he faced (Al "I invented the internet and nature itself" Gore, and John "Lurch" Kerry) he probably wouldn't have won either election (dependent entirely of course on one's definition of "won"). It's the sad state of affairs in politics that the best we've had to offer in the last 8 years and 3 elections is George "if you would care to recall I was actually quite popular for about a month or so" Bush twice, his two previously mentioned opponents above, John "I'm damned old and it's my damned turn to scare you" McCain, Sarah "could I be any more of a nitwit" Palin, Barack "H is for holy shit he's actually less experienced than the Alaskan clown" Obama and Joe "I've been in office doing nothing except living off the American taxpayer for about 6 decades" Biden.

 

Alas.

Are you not very optimistic about your new president, then? We're pretty impressed with him this side of the pond.

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I can't believe you Americans actually voted that man into the White House...

 

To be fair, in 2000 they actually didnt, and in 2004 he got in by the narrowest of margins.

 

If not for the opponents he faced (Al "I invented the internet and nature itself" Gore, and John "Lurch" Kerry) he probably wouldn't have won either election (dependent entirely of course on one's definition of "won"). It's the sad state of affairs in politics that the best we've had to offer in the last 8 years and 3 elections is George "if you would care to recall I was actually quite popular for about a month or so" Bush twice, his two previously mentioned opponents above, John "I'm damned old and it's my damned turn to scare you" McCain, Sarah "could I be any more of a nitwit" Palin, Barack "H is for holy shit he's actually less experienced than the Alaskan clown" Obama and Joe "I've been in office doing nothing except living off the American taxpayer for about 6 decades" Biden.

 

Alas.

Are you not very optimistic about your new president, then? We're pretty impressed with him this side of the pond.

 

Well I can say that he hasn't actually done anything yet to make me either impressed or unimpressed. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt by not openly despising him as yet another run of the mill leader who infringes on the concept of our constitution just yet. To be perfectly fair though, the last time I was impressed by a politician I was a teenager and less curmudgeonly in nature as a general rule when it come to politics. Conservative voting record aside, I really have to choke back the gurgling bile every time I vote. (apologies to those with overly active imaginative skills)

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I voted for Obama - with a certain amount of trepidation. But so far I am cautiously optimistic. None of his cabinet appointments have been the wild eyed hippies I thought they would be. He seems to be, intellectually speaking, more on the ball than the last president, and so far has not betrayed any excesses of the far left, despite the coalition that got him elected.

 

Of course, his popularity in MIddle America will plummet with the first proposed tax increase, which must happen sooner or later to fund all these programs he has conceived. ;)

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I voted for Obama - with a certain amount of trepidation. But so far I am cautiously optimistic. None of his cabinet appointments have been the wild eyed hippies I thought they would be. He seems to be, intellectually speaking, more on the ball than the last president, and so far has not betrayed any excesses of the far left, despite the coalition that got him elected.

 

Of course, his popularity in MIddle America will plummet with the first proposed tax increase, which must happen sooner or later to fund all these programs he has conceived. ;)

 

 

I was a bit freaked out by all the actors giving speeches at his inauguration, Marisa Tomei for christs sake. These people are actors...The Romans had the right attitude to their kind. Still...I guess she could string two words together which was an improvement on "it's going to take time to restore Chaos" GW Bush.

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I believe it is the popular trend to dismiss him as one of the worst presidents thought in my opinion it's way to early to evaluate the impact of his presidency over the US and the world.

I think this article has it just about right. I believe that the claim that his policies have kept Americans safe since 9/11 is preposterous and arrogant - the diligence of the CIA and other security agencies have, rather, protected Americans from the extremism and terrorism fostered by his foreign policy.

 

However, the trade center was destroyed prior to the policies that speak of. Here's a good list indicating the run up of terrorism against the US that had nothing to do with Bush. Presidents, as with any world leader, often get too much blame or credit for many things.

 

I think the CDI site is too simplistic as it makes no attempt to identify who committed the terrorism or more importantly why it was carried out - several of the attacks listed have no link to the arab world including those by some home-grown American bombers. In cases where the attacks did have Arab links it could be claimed they were intended as a response to US involvement &/or polices towards the Arab world - especially their continual support of Israeli occupation of Palestine. Unfortunately terrorism really does beget terrorism and the Israeli continuing occupation of Gaza and the rest of Palestine has long been indefensible as far as most of the world is concerned, when they actually think about the root causes of much of Arab related terrorism dating from the 70's and 80's.

 

Although not perfect this site (http://www.simplytaty.com/broadenpages/terrorism.htm ) gives a few more details, including where it is known which group claimed responsibility and/or who was convicted - in some cases there remains a degree of doubt if the convictions were really justified.

 

Melvadius

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I believe it is the popular trend to dismiss him as one of the worst presidents thought in my opinion it's way to early to evaluate the impact of his presidency over the US and the world.

I think this article has it just about right. I believe that the claim that his policies have kept Americans safe since 9/11 is preposterous and arrogant - the diligence of the CIA and other security agencies have, rather, protected Americans from the extremism and terrorism fostered by his foreign policy.

 

However, the trade center was destroyed prior to the policies that speak of. Here's a good list indicating the run up of terrorism against the US that had nothing to do with Bush. Presidents, as with any world leader, often get too much blame or credit for many things.

 

I think the CDI site is too simplistic as it makes no attempt to identify who committed the terrorism or more importantly why it was carried out - several of the attacks listed have no link to the arab world including those by some home-grown American bombers. In cases where the attacks did have Arab links it could be claimed they were intended as a response to US involvement &/or polices towards the Arab world - especially their continual support of Israeli occupation of Palestine. Unfortunately terrorism really does beget terrorism and the Israeli continuing occupation of Gaza and the rest of Palestine has long been indefensible as far as most of the world is concerned, when they actually think about the root causes of much of Arab related terrorism dating from the 70's and 80's.

 

Although not perfect this site (http://www.simplytaty.com/broadenpages/terrorism.htm ) gives a few more details, including where it is known which group claimed responsibility and/or who was convicted - in some cases there remains a degree of doubt if the convictions were really justified.

 

Melvadius

 

I wasn't intending to imply the why/what for of any of it with my link provided (it was the first one I stumbled across with a fairly good list of events)... only to show that these things were happening well before any policy enacted by everyone's favorite president.

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Bush was awful: scaremongering after 9/11 to invade Iraq, poor and unrealistic planning for the post invasion Iraq, unlawful attacks on human rights including for US and allied citizens, detention centers and torture, disregard for the UN and the opinions of allies, excessive economic deregulation, a team with people like Chaney, Rove and Libby.

He will be remembered as the US president that attacked human rights and ruined free market.

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I wasn't intending to imply the why/what for of any of it with my link provided (it was the first one I stumbled across with a fairly good list of events)... only to show that these things were happening well before any policy enacted by everyone's favorite president.

 

Granted, I thought that was what you meant but thought it was worth pointing out what I felt was a serious lack in the CDI information.

 

On the other hand, judging by dates even if not down to Bush we can now put a few of the others on the list down to actions by his father ;)

 

Melvadius

Edited by Melvadius

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Bush was a disaster in many areas. It is actually surprising the Americans didn't stop him. He is not alone in his follies; the economic policies have been pursued for a long time.

 

I do think he managed to avoid one thing that could have made him immortal. He never made his horse vice president...

 

I have higher hopes for Obama, but I still think he will envy McCain in a year or so.

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A quick civics lesson -- the president executes the law. Its the morons in congress that make the laws. Every foolish thing Bush is blamed for would not have happened if congress were not his willing accomplices. And, if memory serves me right, those burdeons on society havea lower approval rating then Bushie-boo had. I don't see things getting better. We have two senators (one of which couldn't finish one term in office) running the show. Another one is Sec. of State. I say its time we as a people impose term limits on those cretins.

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A quick civics lesson -- the president executes the law. Its the morons in congress that make the laws. Every foolish thing Bush is blamed for would not have happened if congress were not his willing accomplices. And, if memory serves me right, those burdeons on society havea lower approval rating then Bushie-boo had. I don't see things getting better. We have two senators (one of which couldn't finish one term in office) running the show. Another one is Sec. of State. I say its time we as a people impose term limits on those cretins.

 

I've long argued that a limit should be imposed on the maximum term a political party (rather than individual) can remain in power could be a good thing - it tends to smooth out the excessess of politically motivated policy making. However lack of experience or age (either youth or old) is not necessarily a disability to those running a large 'empire' successfully - just look at Augustus. [Even being 'officially' disabiled does not necessarity negate reasoning ability and a successful leadership.] Small mindedness and totally ignoring the wider picture on the other hand is pretty much invariably a recipe for disaster.

 

On the showing to date there may be a few [teething] problems within the Obama camp BUT they do seem willing to listen to a wider world view than Bush's administration ever were and trying to address some of the root causes of the current econmic situation, so from this side of the Pond these are very hopeful signs.

 

Melvadius [edits]

Edited by Melvadius

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Ken Burns struck right tone in an interview done prior to his World War II documentary. Burns explained (to a largely anti-Bush academic audience) that it takes decades for history to properly digest the consequences of a major figure. I recall Burns mentioning thirty years as an adequate time period.

 

It's been pointed out that Harry Truman was practically chased from office for his management of the Korean War, communism, and the ouster of Douglas MacArthur. MacArthur did not take his dismissal lightly and flaunted his past heroism to the country, further damaging Truman's standing with the American public. In hindsight, MacArthur's arrogance caused the negative turnaround to the UN forces on the peninsula. His recklessness threatened to push the United States into an even deeper confrontation with China. Truman's actions were seen as week in the 1950s; the social upheaval and the Vietnam War put him in better light in the 1970s. Truman's containment policy remained the standard for US presidencies up to George Bush the elder.

 

I don't see George W. Bush as ever becoming a "good" president in history's eyes. I have never been hateful to the former president during his time in office. In defense of one reason why held support among a segment of rational-minded was the perception him as being decisive. This was not seen a trait of his predecessor. The invasion of Iraq could have been a geopolitical coup against the authority of an inept United Nations; instead, it turned into an expensive fiasco (initially) simply because there was an inefficient occupational policy. The ineptitude became attached the United States and empowered enemy nations in the view that the country's status was in decline.

 

The handling of energy policy, the detention of prisoners with no plan in sight, his inability foresee the inevitable credit crisis, the defeat over social security reform, and the failure to reform the immigration system all show a presidency with policies that weren't thought-out.

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I do think he managed to avoid one thing that could have made him immortal. He never made his horse vice president...

 

 

Best quote ever in a UNRV current issues thread. Score.

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I believe that Australians to this day harbour a secret fear that we're going to be invaded by Asian hordes, overrun and destroyed. To this effect, we like the idea of having a big friend in the general vicinity, or willing to come running if we are in trouble. George W. Bush was somewhat respected over here for a time, because he seemed to be an immediate personification of that big friend. Besides, him and our then-Prime Minister became mates! :P

 

As such, our diggers are still in Iraq and Afghanistan. He's just as hated over here now as he seems to be over there. And yet, although Iraq was "Vietnamised", there seems to be little or no similar outcry against Afghanistan, even though we went there first. Curious...

 

Still, We're a little worried about Obama. Will he be our friend lol?

Edited by Tobias

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What I found so interesting about the Bush presidency was not the fact that Bush was bad. I knew he would be when he was elected. What I am interested by is the fact that so many people were so pro-Bush, and everyone went along, brainwashed into thinking Iraq had WMDs, and people who disagreed were "unpatriotic." No one was really allowed to even have an opinion otherwise. Finally, the incompetent imbeciles of America, who believed the bullshit propaganda because of their utter stupidity, were fed something else to go and parade around: Bush was really a bad president and the war was bad. Now everyone immediately says they were anti-war from the start, and they basically turn around completely on their stance. Kids just go along with whatever their parents say, but when asked why they have this opinion they become speechless morons. In truth, it was not Bush who was so bad. It was the media, for spreading the propaganda, and the utterly foolish public for believing it without question. Granted, there are definitely some who were in the same position as me--perhaps 35% of the US pop.

 

Antiochus III the Great

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