Ludovicus

Viggen, Did you forget that the half-human, half horse animal would be firing a gun at you, a weapon you'd never seen? Ludovicus

One definition says that imperialism is "pestilence followed by a foreign army." The indigenous peoples of the Americas had no immunity to this deadly disease and died by the hundreds of thousands, maybe millions. Not only did the Spanish arrive with horses, but also with vicious attack dogs. The top heavy structure of Inca society, no doubt, played a big role in the Spanish conquest of the Inca Empire. Once Atahualpa was executed his subjects were panic stricken and unable to organize themselves.

My understanding about the traditional Roman "familia" is that the father held life and death power over all. The conversations between Vorenus and wife seem from another culture's patterns, namely ours in the West. Specifically, his concern about her love for him seems more a feature of romantic love, a notion probably of modern times. While there is ample evidence that many Roman married couples lived lives of deep mutual respect, I can't remember ever reading about romantic love in marriage. I know Southern Europe and Latin America. Indirection is a tool for navigating life so full of possible conflicts with negative outcomes. It's not that people in these places are timid or don't have a view, it's just that "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." There are limits. Once they are passed, tempers flare and hard words and more are used, but it takes a while before these limits are reached. There are also concerns about the risk of losing face in confrontations. Now back to Rome--with all the killing going on, with lists of assassination targets being drawn up by all sides in the conflicts, it seems that characters being dramatically honest, as in the scene between Erastes and Vorenus, seem culturally false.

There's been some interesting discussion here about material objects, dates, and geography. What do people think about the veracity of the relationships in the series? The torture scene in Cloaca Maxima was brutal but believeable. On the other hand, Vorenus's relationship with his wife seems too nowadays, egalitarian. Characters seem too confrontational, too eager to get it off their chests. This seems very North American, not what one does in most other cultures where indirection is valued. In Rome of that era I imagine that there were many spies and that common sense made people more circumspect about what they said, especially outside the home. What do people think about the behavior patterns in the series?

I viewd the trailer. Seems like an action movie where the characters fight to the death without ever wrecking their make-up. If you want to see a low budget but very high quality film based on an actual account from the last century of the West Roman Empire, don't miss De Reditu (Il ritorno) (2004), when it comes to a local art house cinema. Not available on video, as far as I can tell. Here's the plot summary from IMDB.com: "'De Reditu' takes place in 415 AD- five years after the devestating sack of Rome by the Visigoths- and tells the true story of Claudius Rutilius Namatianus, the last great pagan poet of a declining Roman Empire. A nobleman frustrated by the dominance of Christianity (which he blames for Rome's troubles) and a failed love affair, Claudius embarks on a sea journey to his native Gaul in order to raise an army and bring glory back to the Empire."

In some parts of Latin America speakers of Spanish call their language "castellano." In other parts, Spanish speakers call it "espanol." With the tilde over the "n." I rented the DVD from Block Buster Video in Philadelphia, PA, in the USA.

then perhaps you would like to check out for the English version. btw where do you get the Spanish one? It sounds interesting to me. The DVD of episodes 1 & 2 that I rented has three audio choices: English, Spanish, and French. In addition, you can watch the movie with subtitles. Aside from the mistake with "tabacco" the Spanish audio was fine, crystal clear. Se oia sin acento de ningun pais, un castellano bien claro, como se habla en America Central.

Spittle, how interesting! I watched the episode in Spanish and the word "tabacco' came out of Titus Pullo's mouth. This is clearly an error in the Spanish version and not in the English one.

I've just finished watching the first episode of the series: The Stolen Eagle. I nearly jumped out of my seat when I heard the character Titus Pullo mention the word "tabacco," a plant that would only be encountered by Europeans 1,500 years later in the Americas. Has anyone else caught the error? Is there a thread on the HBO series in UNRV?

So you have hundreds of detainees who were rounded up on a battlefield in the chaos of an invasion (cooks, soldiers, camp followers, and people targeted by others with a grudge, and anyone else who happened to be in the wrong spot at the wrong time) all tried with evidence possibly gained from torture. They will have no right to defend themselves in the way we tell the world that free people ought to. Is this a recipe for "freedom" or for the end of the rule of law in the US? Maybe this would help: Your son or daughter is jailed in a foreign country for violating the law there. Wouldn't your first question be on arrival to ask, to demand, "Why is my child being held?" 9-11 was a black day in the US. Add 9-28.

The US Senate today has followed the example of the House of Representatives in denying the right of habeas corpus for enemy combatants. Along with with President Bush's recent "tweaking" of the Geneva Conventions the world will evaluate this "perfect" system. I am a US citizen. 9-11 was a black day. Now add 9-28. Good-bye Magna Carta enshrined habeas corpus. Hello waterboarding of terror suspects. If you want to see what waterboarding looks like: http://hereswhatsleft.typepad.com/photos/u...ter_torture.png

And for making greeting cards and small pictures to hang.

Virgil, thank you for the article. It deserves reading in its entirety. Here's an interesting quote: ...it is still perfectly possible for a republic to behave like an empire in practice, while remaining in denial about its loss of republican virtue. " The quote from US Vice President Cheney's Christmas card is very telling about the guise of the US republic: As quoted in the article by Ferguson: “And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?” And this from President Bush, from the same article: “We’re an empire now and when we act, we create our own reality.… We’re history’s actors.”

On a trip to Chestnut Hill in Philadelphia, I stumbled upon the showroom Souli Tile & Stone. The owner is from Tunisia. His shop displayed several very beautiful copies of Roman mosaics. Here's the website: http://www.souli.net/index.htm

In David Siqueiros's famous mural sequence on the torment of Cuautemoc, the Conquistador's attack dog symbolizes Spain's overthrow of the Aztecs. This very famous depiction can be found in Mexico City's Palace of Fine Arts ( Palacio de Bellas Artes) or just click here: http://mexico.udg.mx/arte/pintores/imagen/monument.GIF

You can see a trailer for "The Mission" at: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091530/trailers You have to sit thru a 15 second commerical first. Cortez used attack dogs in the overthrow of the Aztec empire. Ferocious, deadly dogs were used against the indigenous population of present day Puerto Rico. Here's a summary in Spanish about the military use of canines during the Conquest: http://spanish-alano.com/america.htm

Not just invaders...but invaders who intended to seize direct control swiftly and immediately, and who definitely had 'fancier toys' (horses, guns, better swords, if the indigenous peoples even had swords, and I'm not sure on this, either). When possible and convenient, as I recall, there were some tribes who made pacts with the Spanish in order to help them defeat their rivals--I vaguely recall this in particular with Cortez and the various (what is now) Mexican tribes, who drooled at the thought of conquering the Aztecs. It wouldn't shock me if there was similar 'help' from the indigenous peoples when it came to defeating the Incas and Aymara tribes, too. Yes, the Aztecs were also occupiers and much hated. The Cempoalans and the Tlaxcalans allied themselves with Cortez. Here's a very informative website about the conquest of Mexico from the University of Calgary, Canada: http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tut...voya/aztec.html

Of course, the indigenous people of the Americas reacted with great violence against the Spanish, Portuguese, English, etc. They were invaders.

I saw "The Mission" when it was released in 1986 and was fascinated. Later a Latin American friend of mine with a good background in the region's history told me that the movie is quite acurate when it comes to basic facts. I'm looking forward to renting the movie and seeing it again.

The 1986 movie, The Mission, is an interesting look at European colonial adventures in Latin America. From IMDB's plot summary: "Jeremy Irons plays a Spanish Jesuit who goes into the South American wilderness to build a mission in the hope of converting the Indians of the region. Robert DeNiro plays a slave hunter who is converted and joins Irons in his mission. When Spain sells the colony to Portugal, they are forced to defend all they have built against the Portugese aggressors. "Father Gabriel ascends the mountains of Brazil to bring christianity to the natives. He is successful and brings about a golden age among them. Mendoza, a slaver, kills his brother in a fit of rage, and only Fr. Gabriel's guidance prevents his suicide. Gabriel brings Mendoza to work at his mission with the natives, and Mendoza finds peace and asks to become a priest. The church , under pressure, cedes the land to the Portuguese which will allow slavers in again. Mendoza breaks his vows and organizes the natives to resist while Gabriel warns him to help them as a priest." I believe that the time period is just outside the Conquista, but the issues are pretty much the same. For more info: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091530/

In regard to the last days of the Roman Senate I have this from the Oxford Archaeological Guides: Rome, Amanda Claridge. "Though in AD 630 the Senate House was converted into the church of St. Hadrian, the people of Rome were still being called to assembly in front of it in AD 767. " Page 65. What I love about this book is that it gives you the history of important monuments in Rome throughout their entire history. Likewise, we learn that the Forum of Trajan was fairly intact until the earthquake of 801, page 168. If you are going to tour Rome, I strongly advise that you buy this book. Read it before hand and take it with you. While in Rome one summer, I noticed that the private residence down the street from our hotel on Via San Martino ai Monti was listed in the book as having an Augustan era altar in its basement. Thanks to my Roman cousin, we made contact with the owners of the home who graciously allowed us to see the very well preserved altar in their sub-basement. They were astounded that anyone would know of the monument.

For students planning on studying Spanish in Mexico, I would often recommend "The Broken Spears" by Miguel Leon-Portilla. It's the Aztecs view of the Spanish conquest. For more about this book, see the several reviews at Amazon.com. This work is easy to read. It's derived from Indian accounts of the Conquista. Another important book on the Spanish impact, this time in the Caribbean, is "Puerto Rican Tales: Legends of Spanish Colonial Times" (Mass Market Paperback) by Cayetano Coll Y Toste, Jose Ramirez-Rivera (Translator). This work is perhaps less reliable since its based not on indigenous texts but on later interpretations of accounts by colonials. Also found at Amazon.com. Also not to be missed is the more scholarly "The Conquest of Mexico: The Incorporation of Indian Societies into the Western World, 16Th-18th Centuries" (Hardcover) by Serge Gruzinski, Eileen Corringan (Translator) In some ways the Spanish used a tried and true Roman practice in order to conquer the populations of the Americas: the conquerers sowed their DNA in the native population. In North America, different approaches were used: mass deportations and extermination.

I'm on the road at the moment, away from my books on Rome. I believe that shortly after the Senate ceased to function the Senate building in the Forum, the Curia, became a church, Saint Hadrian's or San Adriano. Thanks to its conversion to a Chrisitan religious building, the Curia was saved. The book "Rome in Late Antiquity" has lots of very readable information about the City in its last days. Pity I can't recall the author.

For those of us interested in the fauna of ancient Greece and Rome here's an interesting article on the species of lions the ancients would have been familiar with. Seems that the lion preferred by the Romans for spectacles in the arena was the Barbary lion (Panthera leo leo). http://www.pothos.org/alexander.asp?paraID...amp;title=Lions

Hmmmm 5th century. That's really late for a new Roman building in Britannia, isn't it?