jud

Thanks for the explaination of quibble, you can tell I'm a newbie to this. I think, as you stated, we do agree on the essentials, but whereas you think the church never was innocent I do believe that it was at one time and that that was lost after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I do believe that Jesus was an historical figure and many historians accept that he did exist. The attached information is just one of a number of quotes from historians who accept the existance of Jesus. Was Jesus a Myth?

Quibble? In effect you made the point that I was trying to make. You say the church was trying to,"replace and bury paganism for all time. Holidays were co-opted, gods were replaced by saints, and religious sites were "paved over" and literally buried by churches and cathedrals.". Co-opting Holidays and gods and adding Jesus name to them doesn't bury paganism but perpetuates it under a different banner. To some extent you point out that the church is still doing this today for you speak of, "deceit, propaganda, and misinformation, witness the Shroud of Turin, various weeping statues and bleeding mummified hearts, claimed miracles, the Inheritence of Constantine, etc.". again adding Jesus name to this activity doesn't make it acceptable for the church to be doing these things, and in effect misleading people. Jesus, when speaking before Pontius Pilate said, "For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth". When Constantine began adapting Christianity, what had been truth now became contaminated with pagan ideas and truth was lost, and as you say, is still lost in the church today. So by Constantines actions he not only brought about the end of paganism in the pure sense, but also we lost what was pure christianity.

Interesting little discussion going on here and I hope you dont mind me adding my thoughts. Throughout the comments made it is constantly mentioned that Constantine was making Christianity more appealing to the pagans. However since he was changing facts about Jesus, and the teaching of the bible, was he not instead paganising christianity?

There are some interesting points made here about the jews and knowing other gods. The indications are however that the jews had long known their god Yahweh. When it was mentioned that Moses needed to ask the name of the god who was sending him to Egypt it wasn't because he didn't know the name of the god of the jews. Discussing this matter the bible commentator Matthew Henry states: 1. From God's name, Jehovah, v. 2, 3. He begins with this, I am Jehovah, the same with, I am that I am, the fountain of being, and blessedness, and infinite perfection. The patriarchs knew this name, but they did not know him in this matter by that which this name signifies. God would now be known by his name Jehovah, that is, (1.) A God performing what he had promised, and so inspiring confidence in his promises. (2.) A God perfecting what he had begun, and finishing his own work. In the history of the creation, God is never called Jehovah till the heavens and the earth were finished, Gen. ii. 4. Remember that the jews had been slaves in Egypt for some time. Their God had left them there. The gods of the Egyptians seemed to be stronger. What confidence could the jews have for deliverance. By giving the name, Yahweh was showing that he would now prove himself. Some state the the name should be translated I shall prove to be, what I shall prove to be, and not I am, that I am. Since in effect god was saying I shall prove to be whatever I need to be to deliver my people, which was something that the jews had not seen of Yahweh whilst in captivity. So why say that they should not worship any other gods in the ten commandments. The jews would know of the gods of Egypt and they witnessed the fact that they could not stop the deliverance of the jewish nation. They would learn of new gods in the land of Canaan, but these gods would not be able to stop Jahweh bringing the jews into the promised land and dispossessing their worshipers of their lands. Since no other gods where able to stop Yahweh why should he share his worship with them? Hence the law that the jews should not worship them.