sylla

May 5, 2009

Unless there is documentary evidence to indicate that crucifixion was used to punish any crime it would be wise not to speculate needlessly.

Indeed, if you can show me the documentary evidence that indicates and defines exactly which infactions of the peregrini, the slaves and the barbarians were susceptible of being punished by crucifixion, we may not need to speculate.

It's not about understanding - in fact christian teaching doesn't require or want you to understand, but accept their word. The crucifixion (notice it's called the Crucifixion[/i]) is painted as a martyrdom, a noble death, a self sacrifice. If you you look at the circumstances it clearly wasn't. Jesus upset the Romans and they punished him the same way they'd punish anyone else accused of those infractions.

The odd thing though is that the Romans liked to chop undesirable movements down wholesale. Yet only Jesus was crucified - not his disciples - which means only his death was thought sufficient to deal with the problem.

You mean in that moment; no less than four apostles (Peter, Andrew, Bartholomew and Philip) were eventually crucified.

May 5, 2009

"How could someone as so clearly politically astute as Caesar, for lack of a better way of saying it, "not seen this thing coming?"

He did take at least one precaution - His heir Octavian was safely stashed away in Greece with a friendly legion close at hand. In the end it was this precaution that did for Brutus and Cassius and the other assassins.

Octavius was in Greece for educational purposes, maybe even waiting for a chance to join the projected Parthian expedition; there's no evidence that security was an issue here.

After all, most of Caesar's family (including his Egyptian mistress and his purported son) were perfectly accessible to the Liberatores.

Besides, most of the Roman soldiers in Greece eventually sided with Brutus.

In 44 BC, even under Caesar's dictatorship for life, I'm not aware of any evidence that the senate, the army or anyone else would have even remotely considered the eventuality of the Roman Res Publica being granted to any individual as heirdom; in all likelihood, not even by Caesar himself.

May 5, 2009

Despite this, Caesar also believed greatly in his own importance in keeping the state from falling into another civil war. According to Suetonius et al, Caesar supposedly claimed that even Brutus was sensible enough not to be impatient for his death. This attitude of Apr

May 4, 2009

Crucifixion was for the filth of the filth; and not just in Rome.

Romans reserved it for non-Romans; barbarians, peregrini and especially slaves (servile supplicium).

When Cicero accused Varro of crucifying Roman citizens, the latter did it in the pretension that they were fugitive slaves.

The rationale was clearly dissuasive; a public, disgraceful, painful dead.

The Romans were very well aware they lived permanently on the verge of potentially dangerous slave rebellions, long before and long after the Servile Wars.

Its application in the context of Judea 33 AD is certainly compatible with the punishment of political rebels; however, almost any crime (especially the violent ones) could have been punished in the same way.

The only thing that all crucified victims had in common was the ostensible lack of respect from their executioners.

My impression is that its use by the Roman authorities over such kind of social scoria (even regular brigands) was entirely discretional.

May 4, 2009

This is the number of hits that we currently get if we google "United States" plus:

"Roman Republic" = about 164,000;

"Roman Empire" = about 1,760,000.

May 2, 2009

From what I've been able to check out, my candidate would be the extraordinary Marcus Petronius Fortunatius (an African?), who served exactly half a century.

After his recruitment by Legio I Italica (Lower Moesia) as a librarius, he successively became tesserarius, optio, signifier and finally Centurion across the lapse of four years.

The next 46 years he was transferred to no less than twelve additional legions:

- VI Ferrata (Syria)

- I Minerva (Germania)

- X Gemina (Pannonia)

- II Augusta (Britannia)

- III Augusta (Numidia)

- III Gallica (Syria)

- XXX Ulpia (Germania)

- VI Victrix (Britannia)

- III Cyrenaica (Arabia)

- XV Apollinaris (Cappadocia)

- II Parthica (Italy)

- I Adiutrix (Pannonia)

He received a decoration in one of the Parthian campaigns, but he was never ascended again.

He died in service; all these trivia come from his funerary inscription (CIL VIII.217 / ILS 2658).

May 2, 2009

When talking about dedication to the army, I believe that we must take into consideration that many of the men who had served for 20 years probably had great difficulties rejoining the civilian life and thus preferred to stay in the army. It's probably not as much a question of dedication as a lifestyle. I'm being such a bore now ain't I?

No doubt the main incentives were status and economy; the net income of Calidius as a regular Centurion might very well have been ten times or more what he earned as an auxiliary Eques, and honorably discharged legionaries were recipients of juicy Praemia (bonus).

May 2, 2009

True, we can't determine his service time from the inscription, which is a shame because all we can do is speculate, but for someone to still be serving in the legions at the ripe old age of 72 yrs old is pretty astounding. Marcus Aurelius Alexander must obviously have put some serious time under his belt to reach the position of Camp prefect.
Let's just say that he signed up at the same age as Titus Caldius who was 24yrs old, which I think is quite reasonable,that would give him time served in the legions of an incredible 48yrs!!! He could indeed have signed up 8yrs earlier at 16 and that would have given him a service time of 54yrs.

Although we will never know I'd like to second NN and put Marcus's name forward for the most dedicated soldier!!

I didn't explain myself right; this inscription didn't say or imply that MAA was on active duty when he died; it's far more likely that he was a retired veteran.

As most military epitaphs, RIB 490 just states in which unit this soldier served and his age at the time of death.

No doubt Calidius' serving time was uncharacteristically recorded due to its exceptional extension.

Another example: the epitaph of Rusticinius Errenius (RIB 363, CIL XIII), from the Legion XXX Ulpia Victrix, tells he died in Lugdunum being 90 years old.

May 2, 2009

I can't agree more; the same applies to most if not all self-comparisons with the Roman Empire/Republic or any other idealized remote past.

Historians might study jingoism and chauvinism as social and political phenomena, but they should definitively never participate or promote them.

May 2, 2009

Another senior officer was the Praefectus Castrorum or camp prefect....who had risen through the centurionate...For example, M.Aurelius Alexander, a Syrian of Commagene of XX VALERIA, died at the age of seventy two, as his tombstone at Chester indicates, still apparently in harness. Graham Webster, Roman Imperial Army.

...does Britannia beat Pannonia

This inscription is R.I.B. 490 from Deva (Chester); Roman-Britain.org indeed states he was from Commagene, but other sources claim he was a Syrian from Osroene.

The Latin Original seems to be:

The English restoration (from Roman Britain: A Sourcebook by S. Ireland):

"To the spirits of the departed, Marcus Aurelius Alexander, Camp prefect (Praefectus Castrorum) of the Legion XX Valeria Victrix, a Syrian from Osroene, lived 72 years..."

It seems his serving time can't be inferred from this inscription.

May 2, 2009

thanks sylla for your detailed post, i have a question though you said,
-Calidius first recruitment was relatively late (24 years old).

that would mean he died while serving?

if you say 25 years for the first term, how long would have been the second term, or would that be open ended?

cheers

viggen

Yes, Calidius died while serving. BTW, he was contemporary to the Dacian Wars of Domitian and Trajan. And the risk exposure for a regular centurion on the field was significant.

Honorably discharged auxilia were full Roman citizens, so in principle the same regular service term considerations detailed by Bill Thayer (GPM post) would have applied.

In practice, it would have been quite unlikely (although not impossible) that a Roman soldier would have survived almost half a century of service, given their average life expectancy.

No more than 50% of the legionaries survived the regular service, even in peace times; besides, the attrition rate increased exponentially with time.

May 2, 2009

if you say 25 years for the first term, how long would have been the second term, or would that be open ended?

@ Bryaxis Hecatee: I'll put on my to do list I managed to forget the epigraphy today as I saw a nearby aqueduct

Are we even sure that 25 years was the time of service (Even as this is what I've always been taught) and what source do we have confirm it?

Absolutely; this was deducted from the Roman military diplomata. In fact, it seems that the navy required an additional year (26 years).

May 2, 2009

Yes it should be that one. I though the date of the find was feb 19th but 18th is close enough. This was also the only very recent find at the exhibition.

Any thoughts on the interpretation?

This is another description (and the confirmation of the identity of this relief) from the Soprintendenza Archeologica di Pompei :

The marble relief on display here, which shows Dionysiac scenes, was discovered in Herculaneum on 18 February 2009.

It was found in a large room with fourth-style decorations in a partly excavated luxury residence in the so-called northwest insula. It was inserted into the painted wall plaster of the east wall of the room at a height of 2 m from the floor.

In 1997 a similar relief, again with a Dionysiac setting, was removed from the south wall of the same room, where it had been inserted into the wall in the same way and at the same height from the floor, Inserting marble reliefs (typoi) into wall decorations was particularly fashionable in the Roman world from the first century BC onwards. Rich and cultured patrons obtained original Greek works of art, or copies of them, from the antiquarian market and used them as prestigious ornaments in their homes. This can be seen in a passage of a letter dating to 67 BC (ad Atticum 1.10.3), in which Cicero asks a friend to purchase on his behalf two sculpted puteals (well heads) and, moreover, marble reliefs to insert in the painted decoration of his villa at Tusculum.

The recent discovery has allowed the technique used for embedding a typos in a wall to be recorded in detail: the face of the opus reticulatum wall was slightly hollowed out to a depth of 5 cm and the relief was placed in this niche without using mortar. Instead support was provided by two iron cramps on the long sides (1.08 m) and a single cramp on the short sides (0.54 m) where there was no frame. Once painted plaster was added the edges were totally covered.

On the right-hand side of the Greek marble relief are a dancing Maenad and a bearded male divinity, probably Dionysius. While on the left there are two female figures in front of an archaistic statue of Dionysius with a kantharos (drinking vessel). The adult woman has her hand on the shoulder of the younger one in a protective gesture. The object in the hands of the young woman is difficult to identify: a tool or a torch, perhaps related to a particular ritual.

The relief was made in a neo-Attic workshop in the first half of the 1st century AD. It is not clear if there is a narrative connection between the two separate scenes, or if it is instead a pastiche where Dionysiac motifs and scenes were mixed or re-presented according to precise decisions made by the patron, who had chosen this theme for the south wall of the room as well.

READ MORE IN www.archaeology.ws

May 2, 2009

Green Grass & High Tides - Outlaws.

May 2, 2009

You made a convincing case. Could it be that the romans educated their soldiers?

Excellent question. I have found no evidence yet. Personally, I don't think so.

Education seems to have never been contemplated as a public responsibility in the Classical Antiquity.

My impression is that the Romans would probably have considered literacy as one of the personal qualities that each soldier ought to cultivate if they really hope to ascend someday; a Darwinian approach, if you like.

My guess is that illiterate soldiers (especially auxilia) would have had no other chance but to rely on literate comrades to try to improve their abilities.

May 2, 2009

As we are getting farther and farther away from the original question, maybe we should begin another thread to continue with this argument.
In amicitia,

Sylla

...Or simply declare elements of the last two posts and continue merrily with the discussion on legionary literacy.

Well, everything began in topic; how important was (or wasn't) literacy for the Roman soldiers.

I hope my position is clear by now; even if indirect, the available evidence strongly suggests that a minimum of literacy was required for the regular performance of legionaries (and auxilia); it didn't seem to have been a luxury for them.

May 1, 2009

Salve mi FV.

But how long did it take the completely illiterate Mongols to adopt a script when they turned from carefree herding nomads into world conquerers in the 13

May 1, 2009

An excellent essay WW, very well written.

I look forward to reading part II. That is if you decide to post it.

Couldn't agree more.

The publication of the Rise and Fall was a pivotal historical event in itself; the European Enlightenment that eventually shaped all our world couldn't have been understood without it, as Gibbon's influence can be detected in one way or another in virtually any social thinker after him. Gibbon is still alive, well and walking among us; many of his own constructs, from the "five good emperors" to the "Byzantine empire", have evolved into solid cultural archetypes still in regular use, even if under uncritical acceptance most often than not. The colossal work of Gibbon is one of those sources that many of us try to quote without actually reviewing it at length. Then, any study that deepens into Gibbon's method, conclusions, message and influence, like this essay, must be welcomed.

May 1, 2009

Salvete Omnes !
As to societies with illiteracy rates of 70 or even 90 %. We are talking here again I think by today's high Western standards. Because, if you go by the UNESCO definition, how can you call that a society ? If the vast majority of the population can not function properly within it ? That is not a society, that is chaos and anarchy. That may be the case in some area's of the world, now as well as in the past. But I think that is not a fair standard.

Valete bene, Formosus

That's a good point. Literacy increases the average functional level of any society (western, eastern, south, north or center) to levels unaccessible for their ancestors. That's why a minimum educational level is required from us for any or almost any job.

Intentionally or not, you're definitively belittling the importance of modern, Roman and any other world education and education systems, essentially by ignoring most of the available evidence, even from our daily life.

Social mammals have complex conduct and activities that are at least partially acquired (ie, teach and learned); for humans, that means virtually anything from sphincter control onwards; just check on feral children. Teaching, in or out of schools, has always been a necessary evil.

Some gifted autodidacts like Franklin or Edison may excel over the average education; that's exactly what made them such extraordinary individuals. Experience has consistently shown that learning, both at home and at school, are not alternative but complementary to each other. If required, home learning might reach high educational levels; this is clearly the exception that confirms the rule.

Literacy is not an inherited skill like oral language; humans have been here for millions of years, and writing for just some millennia at most. The alphabet is presumably the most important human invention even; with just a few signs thousands of words, millions of phrases and countless concepts can be recorded. Using alphabetic signs for counting is not literacy by any measure. Mastering these skills at a basic (

May 1, 2009

On the other hand I would like to see the discussion on Argumuntum ex silentio and argumentum ed ignorantium continue, it's strangely quite interesting.

Argumentum ad ignorantiam

Argumentum ex silentio

May 1, 2009

Thanks but the inscription is pretty simple so I manage to read it in Latin.

I will try to find more information about it in one of Marius biographies.

Try Gaius Marius: A Political Biography, by Richard J. Evans (1994). Besides being a classic on this topic, the author had a lot to say about this eulogy.

This inscription (ILS 59) was in the Forum of Augustus (inaugurated by 4 BC), presumably included among a group of eulogia of illustrious Romans; there was a copy in Arpinum, Marius' natal city (CIL X.5782) and probably another in Ravenna, where it might have been consulted by Plutarch. By the XIX century the inscription was lost; what Primus Pilus posted is Mommsen's reconstruction, based on recovered fragments and Renaissance transcriptions. Probably its most interesting fact is that this is the only available source on Marius than explicitly mentions his quaestorship (usually dated to 121 BC); there has been some debate on the accuracy of this reference.

May 1, 2009

ANYTHING is possible .

We agree.

Anything else is speculation, and any speculation is as solid as their sources (or the lack of them). "Reasonable" is an entirely subjective value judgment.

The potential value of negative evidence depends on its probabilistic (statistical) assessment; ie, how likely is it that the lack of the expected evidence is because it was never there (a true negative) and not just due to chance or alternative mechanisms, like the physical loss of the relevant sources (a false negative).

For example, the possibility of an additional hypothetical wife of Julius Caesar is rather low, given the amount of available prosopographical information from the late Roman Republic; ie, the sources are silent (a true negative).

This is not possible with Valerianus, because here the sources are not silent; they are essentially absent (making a false negative far more likely).

For example, we don

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Posts posted by sylla