Northern Neil
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Posts posted by Northern Neil
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I think the systems were in place already, with the transport system, the state run factories of the late empire, and citizens reduced to bonded labour on the great estates. Had events of the 5th century not been as far reaching, and Persia/the Arab Caliphate ended their wasteful wars with the eastern empire, this could have happened round about 700, perhaps. This would also be dependent on the Church not sticking its oar in, given that the scientific enquiry of classical times was frowned upon by eastern and western churches.
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...or, from the botanical world, 'Pinus Vulgaris' (common Pine)!
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The impression I get is that jesus was a gifted child but like many with pushy parents, he went a little off the rails as a youth. The bible doesn't record anything of those years at all.
The apocryphal gospels do, though, and they record that sometimes he could be a rather unpleasent person. The same as any other normal human being, in fact - probably why it wasn't included in the definitive texts!
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I say good luck to them. As I am an agnostic verging on the atheistic, I don't see why their religion should be any less valid than any other. And What they follow probably is closer to the original than Christianity is to its own origins, given that Christianity has virtually wiped out its original practices, literature and meaning.
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Gladius xx, one is left with the conclusion that a conspiracy exists within the Roman and Orthodox Churches?
To what end? What are they trying to keep from the hungry, ignorant masses?
Like all people in a position of control, they do not want to be regarded as fallible. For the Church to admit that their religion was fasioned and repackaged by the Roman state to achieve political ends, would mean the end of Christianity. For 1600 years christians have become 'used' to the current form of the religion, and it is now to late to adopt the original form of the religion - whatever form that took.
That is why the church burnt heretics in the middle ages, and now buys up and supresses christian writings that opposes the accepted doctrine.
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If Caesar is Jesus, where do I sign up for Satanism?
Why, Cato, Octavian of course! Didn't he kill the republic?
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My telly remains dormant at the best of times, but I will be switching on for this. I suppose I'll have to buy a license now...
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televisual
I see that you are a devotee of my brother, Basil Fawlty!
Ah yes! The penny has dropped! Episode 2, with the spoon salesman!
It turns out that Goody has now made a tearful TV appearance in which she says she is disgusted with herself. Yeah! fearful for her career more like. I think the rest of the inhabitants of that Big Brother house should be disgusted with themselves, too. Aparantly, not one of them stepped in to oppose her bullying. It really is time for this programme to be axed.
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I often wonder if the Romans (or any other ancient people) treated their 'ancient' materials as we moderns treat theirs? I am aware of only two (I am sure this is no big surprise hereabouts.); the Rostra and a hut in Rome.
Octavius - is one of these buildings the so-called 'Regia' in the forum?
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As I type, I am listening to BBC Radio 4, and I have just heard a rather interesting news story. Apparantly, worshippers of the Olympian gods are attempting to re-establish their religion in Greece, and plan to hold a ceremony at the Temple of Zeus tomorrow. Leaders of the Greek Orthodox Church are attempting to get the government to disallow this, and they are calling these people 'Revivalists of a degenerate and misguided religion'.
Nice to see that tolerance prevails in Greece, and that all efforts are being made to reunite Greeks with the original religion of their culture and people.
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I find that we have two congruent threads with material relevant to both: please scroll backwards to retrieve mor data. Members will note my suggested reading "Houses and Society in Pompeii" as a useful source regarding style, layout and the possible interrelationship of servile/dominant quarters.
Pertinax, does this book contain some diagrams and floorplans?
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the very brief Christian persecutions of some emperors.
Indeed. The times when Christians were persecuted solely for their religion amounts to about 6 years in the whole of Roman history, and occurred during the reigns of Trajan, Marcus Aurelius, Decius and Diocletian, for brief spells of about 18 months each.
At other times Christians were rounded up and imprisoned or killed by various governors on account of the fact that at various times they committed crimes against the state, knowing full well they would be arrested and 'martyred'. In these instances, they were arrested not because they conformed to the Christian faith, but because at these particular times to be a Christian meant being a member of a criminal element.
To give a modern analogy, in the British Isles in the '80's IRA members were arrested for being members of the IRA. They were not arrested for being Irish nationalists, though - their IRA membership implied they were prepared to commit criminal acts, and it was that for which they were arrested.
The emperor Theodosius and other Christian writers greatly exagerated the nature and extent of the persecutions. This trend was further augmented by Victorian romanticism and hollywood films.
Interestingly enough, a group of Christians sometime in the third century approached the governor of Bithynia et Pontus, stating that, as they were Christians, they begged to be put to death to effect their martyrdom. The governor replied that he was too busy, but there were cliffs and ropes in abundance throughout the province if they wanted to do it themselves.
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Rome, with all due respects to its military prowess, was not able to affect or stir the human spirit in he way that Jesus Christ did. The spirit in man, once tapped by God, became the driving force of the movement.
This does little to explain, to me, why Rome's vitality dropped in direct proportion to its Christianisation, and why the Christian movement subsequently became very military and political indeed. By the time of Justinian, Rome had regained its vitality, in direct proportion to Christianity gaining its militancy and political role. It also found the need to exterminate paganism to a degree of efficiency that vastly outshone, in terms of human and cultural loss, the very brief Christian persecutions of some emperors.
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Yep - unfortunately that was for real. Jade Goody has been foisted on the British Public as a 'celebrity' on the back of a downmarket TV programme called 'Big Brother'. The basic theme of that programme is thus: 12 unstable, slightly dim, sometimes vulnerable people of dubious educational level are selected by audition, and placed in a confining environment over a period of several weeks. The British public then derive 'entertainment' from the antics of the inmates, whom the programme delibrately provoke into atrocious displays of egocentricity, bullying and occasional sexual fumblings. Occasionally, one of the inmates is quite intelligent and perhaps attractive. Needless to say, they usually find themselves at the receiving end of shameful acts of bullying and even racist abuse.
Unfortunately Jade Goody, a brash, materialistic waste of DNA with a lot to say about F*** all, has become a celebrity due to her coarse, vulgar and distasteful posturing. She now has several million pounds in her bank account, largely because millions of my fellow Brits sit glued to this televisual junk and regard it as exciting. I feel genuinely saddened and a little scared that this kind of garbage is at the top of our TV ratings.
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All the Christian writings destroyed in the 4th - 5th centuries. Also, the Dead Sea Scrolls which were bought up by the Vatican. Whether they were subsequently destroyed or simply placed 'beyond use' on account of their content, they are effectively lost.
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Ave Northern Neill
The first editing and repackaging was actually done by Paul of Tarsus, who depoliticized the Messianic Judaism of Jesus's immediate followers and presented it to the pagan world not only as a new religion, which it certainly was not meant to be, but also as a non-political one that posed no threat to Rome's status quo in Judea.
Many thanks Gladius, for pointing that out. From your comment, and my further reading on the subject, I suspect that the de-politicisation enabled it to survive long enough to reach the council of Nicaea in the first place.
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Here is a website that may amuse! http://www.nitpickers.com/ Here is a quote from the site: 'The red car is visible in all formats, I watched it long ago on the wide-screen version and then later on a VCD and you can see it clearly making a dust-tail through the desert in the background of the chariot race track. Was it the production vehicle or an animal caravan, I aint sure.'
Here is another amusing quote: 'The great chariot race in the movie is held in the Damascus area, this is because there was no arena for chariot racing in ancient Jeruselm. There is a problem with this though. Jerusalem was in the Roman province of Judea whearas Damascus was in the province of Syria. In the movie Pontius Pilate (Frank Thring) is clearly the governor of Judea yet he appears to be presiding over a chariot race in another province! Wouldn't the govenor of Syria preside over a chariot race in his own capital city? This is like the govenor of Michigan becoming the master of cermonies at a Football game at the University Wisconsin!'
...and yet another: 'Massalla is having a conversation with Judah, and tells him that two more legions are coming to Jerusalem apparently because Tiberius wants Judea to be a more loyal province. In fact, NO Roman legions were stationed anywhere near Jerusalem until the Jewish Wars in 69 AD. The fortress of Antonia was garrisoned by a small vexilum (detachment) most likely from any of the three legions based in Syria (XII Fulminata, III Gallica, or VI Ferrata). The rest of the soldiers would have been auxiliary soldiers of either Syrian or Egyptian nationality. Since Jesus was crucified around 29 AD, that makes for a bit of a problem.'
The site lists loads of other films and their continuity errors. Enjoy!
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I think that Christianity was anything but apolitical once it took hold. It was edited, re-packaged and adopted as the state religion as a political expedient, and thereafter up to recent times it exercised political power to astonishing degrees.
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Many thanks to you all - I had a great day!
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Again , as a colonial, would like to know if the Scots are civilized or not!?
I believe he has a cousin by the name of macadder?
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Nah. It was shaped like the turnip Baldrick served for my aunt and uncle's dinner.
...a bit like a 'thingy'?
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Could you tell me which book of Ammianus Marcellinus you are quoting from?
I dont know what the book was originally called, but Ammianus' writings are published by Penguin Classics, under the name 'The Later Roman Empire'. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Later-Roman-Empire...TF8&s=books
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Thank you, my friends! I am just finishing my last bottle of Valpolicella as we speak...!
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Ammianus Marcellinus (4th Cent) is a late Roman literary hero of mine. He remarked that when food supplies were a bit tight in Rome, people of certain professions were temporarily excluded and sent away from the city. He was aghast that philosophers and scholars were sent away, whilst charioteers and dancers were allowed to stay.
I think he would see comparisons by the shipload! Celebrity (nonentity!) Big Brother*, soaps, TV programmes about putting up decking or painting walls, not to mention a veritable cornucopia of other televisual junk, all aired between 7pm and 11pm. Sir Patrick Moore's 600th edition of 'The Sky At Night', however, gets aired at 2AM!!
*For our non British friends, 'Big Brother' is a TV prog that involves putting 12 vulnerable and slightly dim people in a cramped environment, and deriving entertainment from their posturing, tantrums and possible sexual liasons. It is, sadly, one of our most popular TV programmes. Occasionally a brash, materialistic loudmouth is selected from their number, and is foisted on the British public as a 'celebrity', despite the fact no - one can stand her. Or him (whoops).
After the Fall
in Postilla Historia Romanorum
Posted · Edited by Northern Neil
Ironically the most damage occurred to the city when the Empire re-conquered it in the mid 6th century. Walls were breached and aqueducts were cut by the East Roman army during the seige. Monuments such as Hadrian's Tomb were fortified and stripped of their marble adornments, which were used as missiles by the defending Goths. Prior to that it was becoming tatty, but still recogniseably the same classical city as of old. The Goths maintained many of the monuments and still staged chariot races in the Circus Maximus, despite considering them a waste of time and money themselves.
After the disastrous reconquest by Justinian, the population of the city dropped as there was only one aqueduct remaining in working order, and from thence Rome's population was strung out along the course of that one aqueduct. The Senate ceased to function immediately prior to this, as most of the senators were killed by the Goths for aiding the East Roman re-conquest. From that point on, Rome's 'classical' era ended, and its mediaeval one began. Church records refer to cattle and sheep being driven through the forum in about 600, so by then the rot had truly set in.