Plautus

Beyond all the soap opera elements and full frontal nudity in HBO's Rome, what was it's overall message? The series describes in detail how the Roman democracy after 450 years slowly slipped into autocratic rule. In season one the Senate is a clamorous debating society, riven with faction and class conflict. Party alliances are made and broken. Procedural maneuvering is a fine art. By the last episode the Senate is reduced to merely a docile cheering section for Octavian. In seperate episodes we saw how the voting system was corrupted by money, the lawcourts compromised, rhetorical skills no match for men with armies, personal prejudices played on and political back-stabbing was at times real backstabbing! Of course to trace the real beginnings of the fall of Roman freedom, we should have gone back to Marius and Sulla or the Gracchi. Perhaps even to the disgrace of Scipio Africanus. By Caesar's time it was almost gone. Was it all because of the material wealth and power that came with world domination? Are Timon and his brother representing the suppressed people of the Third World, who's anger to hit back only grows and surpasses their material comfort? What would you call the first nail in the coffin of Roman democracy? I think the series made a heroic effort to describe to modern viewers the slow eroding of the political power of the majority. Even as the newsreader declares the restoration of the Republic, by then the process is complete and the stage is set for one-man imperial rule. Thats why the series ends here at this point, even more than winding up the adventures of Voerrenus and Pullo. It is unneccessary to go further.

Primus Pilus is correct. Period pieces are expensive to film. They had to build two massive sets- the Forum and the Aventine neighborhood, and maintain them for over two years of weather. Not to mention the palaces, army camps, Egyptian locales and more. Also every spoon, shield, cloak and wig was made from scratch. If you are Ridley Scott and have two-hundred million to drop on a single film, great. But HBO works with a yearly budget that allows for other projects like the Sopranos as well. So even without big battles, this was one of their most expensive projects to date. Get the special edition DVD of Elizabeth Taylor's Cleopatra (1963). The documentary about the film also describes the huge budget neccesitating anemic battle scenes. I think the series did have some soapy elements, and I would have liked to see Pharsalia in more detail. I felt they were too cautious in not trying to interpret more ancient music. I felt the silences at the dinner parties and spectacles. Could have used a bit more triumphant music a 'la Miklos Rosza. Maybe that might have made it too Hollywood. Since we have so little ancient music, to keep the accuracy they erred on the side of caution. But all in all, compared with other attempts to do the same story ( Remember NBC's EMPIRE?) HBO did a great job. It was pretty gutsy of them to go without any big name stars, and keep the dialogue on a level not usually heard by a modern audience. All the references to Pydna, Georgovia and Nemesis and Bona Dea without ever pausing to explain it. I felt that was one of the great strengths of the show. As enthusiasts of ancient studies, it made us all part of an elite club. I was ever explaining all these details to friends at work the next day. Since when does the politics of the Second Triumverate take precedence at the watercooler over NCAA basketball? And for once it didn't feel like I was watching a modern person in ancient clothes, like Orlando Bloom's medieval grunge-socialist being a wet-blanket in the Crusades in Kingdom of Heaven. We never really saw Voerenus die or be cremated, maybe we can still get another season? Ask the Good Goddess for help!

Alas and alack, put out the lamps, the play is done! We had our quibbles with some of the historical details, but all in all, it was a helluva good series. Finally some real meat for historical fans. When you consider this came right after that dreadful network program Empire, that covered some of the same time, but was unwatchable, we lucked out. I don't think HBO plans another series, but with the success of 300, more films about antiquity are probably a certainty. Conscript Fathers, one more question. I was out of town last week so I didn't get a chance to ask- When Gaiia does her deathbead confession, she says she doesn't want to face Nemesis with a lie in her heart. Can some learned doctor of religion kindly explain to me the meaning of this?

Just heard in todays Variety that 300 will be premiered on IMAX screens on March 9th.

Thanks also, we wondered as well what she was saying. When Cleopatra said she did not recall Anthony, I think she was doing it as part of their power game of belittling one another. She feigned ignorance of his importance and he treated her as a petty subject monarch. We met several new characters. The veteran who joins Vorenus and Pullos Collegia, the sexy madame and the slave being beaten up who makes an offer to Atias slave Castor. I suspect he is a spy to be planted in her household by someone- Servilla? Great episode.

I believe they are chanting Jupiter-Optimus Maximus, a chant used in the first season.

Does anybody know what Voerenus and Pullo were collecting from the ashes of Niobe's pyre and why? Was there a designated area of Rome where such cremations were done? Vatican Hill?

The episode was good fun. Upon reflection, if I have one bone to pick, I am sorry they didn't portray Anthony's Funeral Oration of Caesar. Hearing it second hand was like the short shrift given to the Battle of Pharsalia in the first season. I am enjoying the idea of Brutus as a overbred elitist snob. I like the portrayal. Makes Americans feel lucky that George Washington was sterile. Imagine trying to elect leaders with a George Washington XIV hanging around. Or a George W. Washington?

Salve Citizens, The Second Season of HBO's ROME has started here in the U.S. at long last. Happy Day! Two questions for my brother and sisters about some details portrayed. (Remember not to give away too much to our overseas cousins!) - Is there an accurate meaning when Pullo and Irene dab each others foreheads with mud like the Catholic Ash Wednesday ceremony? -When Voerenus sifts through the remains of Niobe's funeral pyre, what is he collecting? One questions also lingers in my mind from the first season. In the opening of episode two, When Attia is whipping her slave Castor , all the family busts have a scarlet ribbon tying their throats. Is there a religious meaning for this?

My personal opinion would be that perhaps Datura strammonium would have been a possible "commonplace" alternative as a burnt inhalant-army medics certainly knew of it , and it was a commonplace herb aroud the Med.f http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...=si&img=180 That brings up the issue for me of Pullo's brain surgery. They portray Pullo strapped down and being operated on with no anesthetic. I once read that as early as Alexander, Greek and Persian armies knew about chewing an opium bulb before an operation. Which is correct?

That was my understanding of what archaeological has brought to light, most particularly with wells & springs. Yes, if you ever visit the English city of Bath you will see in their museum a collection of curses recovered from the sacred well of Diana. I love one on particular;" To whoever stole my gloves, may your lose your eyes and hands and die in agony." Geej, someone really missed those gloves!

I think Washington is compared to Cincinnatus because Washington was popular enough to have become King if he had wanted. Alexander Hamilton even suggested something along those lines. However, Washington served a mere two terms in the vaguely defined office of President and then retired, much as Cincinnatus had done after serving his term as dictator. Sorry to have seen this thread so late. The XVIII Century American founders had a fascination with ancient institutions as being about pure disinterested public service, in an age before what they saw as society being tainted with religious, Popish supersticion and despotism. George Washington was called a Cinncinnatus because after the Revolution ended he resigned all his offices and went home to his farm. This act amazed George III and Louis XVI, that "the great Generalissimo of the Americas should so casually walk away from power like some legendary Roman?" Cinncinnatus, according to Livy. And after serving his two terms as president he went home again. In Europe that simply wasn't done. monarchs don't retire. And at that time even democratic states like England and Holland had princes on top. The only other country than America to exist without a crowned head were the Swiss Cantons.

Two things I wondered about: - In Episodes Three and Four when around the house, Pullo and Vorennus wear something that looks like a t-shirt tunic with a black eagle seared upon it. Is that accurate? It's certainly badass looking enough to have serious merchandising potential for HBO. - The death of Cato. In the show he stabs himself in the privy in a house in Utica. I recall reading he was on board a ship in the harbor. He spent most of the previous night fortifying himself by rereading Plato's comments on the afterlife. When he stabbed himself his friends got doctors to bind his wounds. But as Caesar's officers arrived to arrest him Cato thrust his fingers into his wounds and ripped them open again. "All is well with the General", he said, then died. The Getty Museum has a XVIII painting of Cato on shipboard doing this. Which is the right version?

Thank You so much, Viggen. Yes, It's my first history book. I spin a tail of Communist agents, the Mafia, blacklists, riots, suicide, madness, Walt Disney and Daffy Duck. And its all true. My website is www.tomsito.com Just don't ask me about the subliminal things in Disney cartoons.

I wonder who will play Simon Bar Kochba? Larry David? Listening to his kvetching would make me send him on a Diaspora.

"I agree in part, as I would love to see a depiction of the battle of Actium at the end of the series, but I do realise that this would cost a HUGE amount of money and would be extremly difficult and dangerous to film, so it would be best left out of the series." Speaking of anemic battle scenes and Actium, go get the collectors edition of Elizabeth Taylor's 1963 Cleopatra. The expanded version makes a little more sense than the original, but it's still pretty boring. But there is a documentary about the production that is better than the film. It explains that the director Joe Mankewicz spent so much money on the interior melodrama scenes, including flying out to Italy Liz's favorite chili from Chasens in Beverly Hills, that he ignored any large set pieces, except for Cleopatras grand entrance into Rome. When the film was done Studio chief Darryl Zanuck exploded. Where were the battles? He called back many actors to film the films opening at Phrasalia and the Battle of Actium, which was done pretty low budget, and it shows.

I saw that Roman Vice documentary and I agree. I knew a freelance writer who has done work for the History Channel. He said lately there is a definite emphasis from management ( Time Warner, I believe) on dumbing down copy to the level of the reality-show loving masses. They are worried about ratings and how to get more viewers. If you come to them with a topic they will be overly dependant upon still art over archival footage, forget it. So don't look forward to seeing any shows on the Gracchi or the Hanseatic League in the near future. Remember when the The Learning Channel ran real documentaries and Bravo ran concerts and operas? Now, If we could only get Paris Hilton to do the bio of Julia Augusta..?

I also add my vote for the Corneli Family. I would think the conquests of Africanis, Asiaticus and Aemelianus combined added more territory in to the Empire than most others.

Sorry I was out for awhile. The press release was listed on Animation World Network, a on-line magazine for the animation community. www.awn.com last week. July 24th, to be exact.

Bona Dea, man! Ask the Gods to get you the dvd collection. I think it's in stores by now. Sell your children, raid the Cilician coast for plunder! They may only make one more season of this show, so each episode is valuable. It's the perfect antidote for Paris Hilton and Fear Factor.

Pertinax, did the British version also cut the scene where Attia sends the Big Penis slave to her enemy as a peace offering? I heard he was played by a well known Italian *or* star.

I've been there a lot in the past, but not since they reopened the Malibu museum. It seems J. Paul Getty thought that stretch of the California coast ressembled the Bay of Naples to him in climate and flora. So he built this full size Pompeiian villa there to house his collection. He had a free standing bronze chariot driver that they thought was a Lysippus, but I think it's been proven a copy. The collection of republican busts was superb. When old man Getty died he was the richest man in the world, and because of family disputes he left he bulk of his fortune to the museum. I hear it's really good. They bought the land around it and planted high cypresses and pines to make sure the mood isn't broken by a Jack in the Box or muffler store. When driving there be careful, Mel Gibson lives nearby and may be back behind the wheel!

True, True. Good answers Cato. What I liked about the series was that it was the first Sword & Sandal story not to condescend to a modern peoples lack of knowledge. It doesn't lay everything out easy for the Reality-Show crowd. When Caesar tells Anthony before going out to adress the men, "Don't clean up, you look good like that. Like Leonidas at Thermopylae." Or when Caesar is annoyed and exclaims "Bona Dea!" Or Vorennus always going on about how he had an ancestor at Magnesia, no attempt is made to explain, you just have to know. Yet, I don't feel it hurts your appreciation of the drama.

I guess I like Rome because the more I study it the more I appreciate the similarities between our present society and this long dead one. It is so gone it seems like another world, just a few pottery shards, a mozaic and some broken columns, yet it is so alive in us and our institutions. Although I admire the culture of the Middle Ages, I could never see myself going on Crusade, or being ruled by some life dominant vow. I don't think I could live my life constantly pining away for the next. Meanwhile the Romans were practical, middle class, self aware and self effacing. They liked to laugh at themselves. They liked to buy things, were into fashion and wanted a good life. Wasn't it Martial who said:" I don't ask much from life, just to make enough to afford a few stiff-necked Moesians to carry me to the Games in style.." (Bad paraphrase, I know). When I read Marcus Aurelius, he feels closer to man's attempt to reconcile with the infinite better than any saint or televangelists' dogmatic ravings. When I read Pliny the Younger complaining to a friend about his being stood up for a dinner invitation- " I went all out, I served snow. you know thats not cheap..." That sounds like a conversation we could be having now. People in the Middle Ages, Enlightenment, ever the Victorian era didn't sound like that. And that from a pen that was stilled two thousand years ago.

Yes Francis, What my dear colleague Pertinax says is true. Much of what you ask is in these lists. I think Primus Pilus pointed out a while back that the characters of Vorenus and Pullo are taken from a small reference Julius Caesar made in his book the Gallic Wars. Caesar made a point of remembering two cantankerous centurions named Vorennus and Pullo who squabbled and competed to see who was braver in battle, but the one would always help the other when he got in a hot spot among the enemy. As far as the grime goes, I'm spending the summer in Taipei which has had a Mediterranean-like climate in the 90s fahrenheight (31-33 celsius) with 90 % humidity since early May. In a city of narrow streets, smokey fires, and no air conditioning, I can well accept the grittyness. As for the murders, Rome had no regular police force, and the streets were a pretty dangerous place after dark. People usually rose and retired with the sun. Rich people could afford bodyguards and escorts with torches to go around at night. As far as the swords cutting limbs, what came to my mind was Gibbon's chronicle of how Theodoric the Visigoth chopped Odoacer in half with one stroke during a peace conference. " Surely the mother of this knave must have made him with gristle, for I find no bone therewithin." Peace was achieved, by the way. Thanks for the questions. That's what first attracted me to this site. Whenever I needed to ask about the show "who is that 300 pound naked lady covered in chicken blood?' UNRV was there to answer.