A Latin-speaking Community in Constantinople?

[Ludovicus]

One can find mention of Syrian and other ethnic groups

residing in Rome during the latter part of the Empire.

Was there a Latin-speaking enclave in the capital of the Eastern Empire?

If so, what do we know about this community?

[Kosmo]

The empire had many latin speakers in the Balkans, like Justin and Justinian, an later in Italy and Africa. It is only after the arab and slavic invasions that greek takes precedence. In the later period there was a community in Constantinople of neolatin languages speakers mostly merchants and mercenaries while in the Balkans lived the vlachs.

[Ludovicus]

The empire had many latin speakers in the Balkans, like Justin and Justinian, an later in Italy and Africa. It is only after the arab and slavic invasions that greek takes precedence. In the later period there was a community in Constantinople of neolatin languages speakers mostly merchants and mercenaries while in the Balkans lived the vlachs.

 

This "neolatin" enclave in Constantinople sounds fascinating. Where can I find information about it?

[Kosmo]

I cant tell you about a book but there are many mentions of traders from Amalfi, of venetians in Pera and genoese in Galata, of western mercenaries and crusaders until the day of the fall and of course about the Latin Empire of Constantinople.

[docoflove1974]

I cant tell you about a book but there are many mentions of traders from Amalfi, of venetians in Pera and genoese in Galata, of western mercenaries and crusaders until the day of the fall and of course about the Latin Empire of Constantinople.

 

Correct; just reading a good biography of Marco Polo tells this story (I highly recommend Laurence Bergreen's Marco Polo: From Venice to Xanadu ) tells this, as well. But to my knowledge, if there are Latin-speakers in Constantinople, they were 'underground', so to speak. Greek was the standard language, if you will, as well as the language of the traders. Other immigrant communities existed, particularly the Syriac-speaking peoples, but I don't know of a Latin-speaking one in particular.

[sylla]

As far as I know, Greek precedence was never challanged by Latin east to the Ionian Sea in Classical times.

[Aurelia]

I came across this Wikipedia entry a while ago and thought I'd post it here. It does refer to a Latin community in Constantinople but in a much later period (as opposed to middle eastern ethnic groups in ancient Rome).

 

Massacre of the Latins

[sylla]

I came across this Wikipedia entry a while ago and thought I'd post it here. It does refer to a Latin community in Constantinople but in a much later period (as opposed to middle eastern ethnic groups in ancient Rome).

 

Massacre of the Latins

That's indeed an interesting entry, Aurelia.

 

The episode in itself seems to be exact but the quoted figures (eg, [sIC]"by 1180, it is estimated that up to 60,000 Latins lived in Constantinople") seem to me to be absurdly high; that would have been roughly like half the population of Venice, the entire Genoa or two times Paris by the late XII century.

 

The article quoted no primary sources; all in all, it seems suspiciously apologetic for the forthcoming IV Crusade.

 

In any case, I don't think this is what Ludovicus had in mind; these unfortunate Italians were "Latins" for their Christian rite; they surely spoke some contemporary romance language(s), not any real Latin.

Edited September 24, 2009 by sylla

[Aurelia]

I came across this Wikipedia entry a while ago and thought I'd post it here. It does refer to a Latin community in Constantinople but in a much later period (as opposed to middle eastern ethnic groups in ancient Rome).

 

Massacre of the Latins

That's indeed an interesting entry, Aurelia.

 

The episode in itself seems to be exact but the quoted figures (eg, [sIC]"by 1180, it is estimated that up to 60,000 Latins lived in Constantinople") seem to me to be absurdly high; that would have been roughly like half the population of Venice, the entire Genoa or two times Paris by the late XII century.

 

The article quoted no primary sources; all in all, it seems suspiciously apologetic for the forthcoming IV Crusade.

 

In any case, I don't think this is what Ludovicus had in mind; these unfortunate Italians were "Latins" for their Christian rite; they surely spoke some contemporary romance language(s), not any real Latin.

 

Yes, I know Ludovicus meant something else. I was just going along with what Kosmo said above about merchants of Italian origin, crusaders, mercenaries and so on.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Aurelia

[Ludovicus]

I was thinking along the lines of a Latin-speaking community with deep roots back to imperial times, nourished by refugees fleeing post 410 AD Rome. In modern times we think of large metropolis with neighborhoods defined by minority ethnic groups. I may be way out on a limb, but could there have been a Latin quarter in Constantinople peopled not just by traders but by the descendants of these earlier Western Empire Romans? Do we have authors writing in Latin from the Byzantine period?

[Maladict]

I was thinking along the lines of a Latin-speaking community with deep roots back to imperial times, nourished by refugees fleeing post 410 AD Rome. In modern times we think of large metropolis with neighborhoods defined by minority ethnic groups. I may be way out on a limb, but could there have been a Latin quarter in Constantinople peopled not just by traders but by the descendants of these earlier Western Empire Romans? Do we have authors writing in Latin from the Byzantine period?

 

I imagine that would certainly have been the case. A lot of people in Rome making a living out of being close to the centre of power would have had no choice really. I remember reading somewhere that eastern members of the Roman senate were transferred to make up the new senate at Constantinople.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Maladict

[Caius Maxentius]

If there was such a community, I wonder how much drift in their dialect there would have been. How isolated would such a community have been, given that Constantinople was a busy imperial port with Westerners, esp. Italians, stopping in quite a bit?