Jump to content
UNRV Ancient Roman Empire Forums

original pronnciation of "Pilus Primus"


Pedis Expeditus

Recommended Posts

Pretty basic question. Sorry if it is too basic for this forum. My first post. Redirect if approprite.

 

I suspect that it is almost exactly as you may suspect however, my own Latin is too flaky to really be certain when answering this so hopefully one of the others can help out.

 

Just to confirm that as you have asked for the 'original pronounciation' I assume that you really do wish the Republican/ Early Principate pronounciation rather than Church Latin or one of the other later variants.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

. . . and I think it's more usually "Primus Pilus" rather than "Pilus Primus".

 

. . . and whatever you do, don't translate it as "First Spear" (common misconception!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Misconception? No, actually, I don't think it is. The Romans were very literal about naming ranks and formations and the term 'First Spear' to them was a very meaningful phrase. To believe the Romans used a modern rank system is merely foisting our culture on top of theirs. Theirs was more direct, more feral, and the phrase 'First Spear' very appropriate in my view.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Misconception? No, actually, I don't think it is. The Romans were very literal about naming ranks and formations and the term 'First Spear' to them was a very meaningful phrase. To believe the Romans used a modern rank system is merely foisting our culture on top of theirs. Theirs was more direct, more feral, and the phrase 'First Spear' very appropriate in my view.

 

If the combined intelligence, experience and knowlege of all UNRV contributors can't crack the truth of this one, we should hang our heads in shame.

 

So, the translation of 'Pilus' as 'file' . . . does this have a military origin with 'Pilum'? Is 'Pilus' ever used in a non-military context?

 

Let's be having your opinions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pilus, pili (chief) and Pilum, pili (the old good fellow javelin) are actually not the same words, although it certainly looks like they had a common origin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

although it certainly looks like they had a common origin.

 

 

The origin is key. If Caldrail is right (and he makes a good case), the 'chief/rank' derives from the 'spear'. But then, Centurions didn't carry pili (spears).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But semantically, I could conceive of it. It's common that the chief of a tribe has a different weapon than the others, or at least a different style/size. While this is only a guess, I could see the semantic link to the early tribal days, perhaps even something between Proto-Indo-European and Old Latin, which links the chief of an Italic tribe carrying a spear, or a large spear. I would have to know the Oscan and Umbrian versions of these words--something that I don't have right now--and we would have to know how pre-Roman tribes functioned.

 

Getting back to the original question, this site from Ohio State University will help you with pronunciation issues.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I might be able to check the Oscan/Umbrian tomorrow as they have the absolutely most recent (2009) comparative grammar (latin, Oscan Umbrian) at the library here.

 

On a side note about the spear - wasn't the spear the normal weapon, not something special during the pre-Roman times?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...