Gordopolis Posted November 17, 2022 Report Share Posted November 17, 2022 I had this article published recently on 'Military History Now', and wanted to hear the thoughts of the UNRV gang. https://militaryhistorynow.com/2022/11/10/echoes-of-the-thunder-god-how-the-likeness-of-a-forgotten-hittite-deity-found-its-way-into-a-roman-army-fort-in-britain/ In essence, I was at Vindolanda Roman fort, and found there a carving of what struck me as the spitting image of an old Hittite god (the Hittites vanished from history long before Rome was founded). I've tried to draw some plausible lines across the centuries to work out how the Hittite god from the Bronze Age might have made it to rainy 2nd c AD Britannia! Hope you like, and let me know what you think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted November 17, 2022 Report Share Posted November 17, 2022 You have to understand that ideas and myths are very persistent qualities in human societies. The story of Noah for instance is not an Old Testament original, it's a version of a story that's way way older. Scholars have linked the emergence of the mythical Jesus with the Egyptian Osiris (the 'real Jesus' happens within a couple of decades of his supposed death), and so on. So with the territory of the former Hittite Empire being under control of the Roman Empire, is it really that suprising that familiar imagery survives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordopolis Posted November 17, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2022 22 minutes ago, caldrail said: You have to understand that ideas and myths are very persistent qualities in human societies. The story of Noah for instance is not an Old Testament original, it's a version of a story that's way way older. Scholars have linked the emergence of the mythical Jesus with the Egyptian Osiris (the 'real Jesus' happens within a couple of decades of his supposed death), and so on. So with the territory of the former Hittite Empire being under control of the Roman Empire, is it really that suprising that familiar imagery survives? Aye, Noah is basically Deucalion or Utnapishtim from the Epic of Gilgamesh. And those two are probably derivatives or carry-ons from some earlier root event. That Hittite imagery survives into the Roman era is not surprising, but that it is adopted, given new life and meaning in that time is - I think - quite special. Particularly because the Hittite Empire was "lost" to history before, during and after the time of Rome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guy Posted November 18, 2022 Report Share Posted November 18, 2022 (edited) Interesting observation. That said, I’m not totally convinced that the Roman image was derived from Hittite mythology. There were many gods in the Hittite pantheon. Most of the Hittite gods seemed to have unusually shaped hats. The Roman image seems like a typical scene of a farmer, farm tools in hand, working with his herd. The Roman image is also bareheaded. Maybe I would be more convinced if the military unit originated from Anatolia (modern-day Turkey), the ancestral home of the Hittites. Interesting article, however. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_mythology_and_religion Edited November 18, 2022 by guy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novosedoff Posted November 18, 2022 Report Share Posted November 18, 2022 17 hours ago, Gordopolis said: In essence, I was at Vindolanda Roman fort, and found there a carving of what struck me as the spitting image of an old Hittite god (the Hittites vanished from history long before Rome was founded). I've The founders of Rome, Remus and Romulus, seem to have claimed their lineage from Aeneas, a survivor from Troy, while Troy was located on the outskirts of the Hittite kingdom. There could have been some exchange of ideas. For instance, Remus and Romulus sucked from the Capitoline wolf, but the same image is also present in Anatolian Turkish mythology if you google by the word Asena. So syncretism was widespread. From the latest link you shared on Hittite mythology Quote Tarhunt – god of thunder (Luwian) During the Iron Age, Tarhunz of the vineyard (turwarasina Tarhunza) was worshipped with particular intensity in Tabal. Remarkably, there is also a popular drink in Russia and Georgia under the same name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarkhuna_(drink)?wprov=sfla1 Quote Hapantali – pastoral goddess Hasameli – god of metalworkers and craftsmen (Hattic) To me both names sound like Georgian words actually 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordopolis Posted November 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2022 6 hours ago, guy said: Interesting observation. That said, I’m not totally convinced that the Roman image was derived from Hittite mythology. There were many gods in the Hittite pantheon. Most of the Hittite gods seemed to have unusually shaped hats. The Roman image seems like a typical scene of a farmer, farm tools in hand, working with his herd. The Roman image is also bareheaded. Maybe I would be more convinced if the military unit originated from Anatolia (modern-day Turkey), the ancestral home of the Hittites. Interesting article, however. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_mythology_and_religion Yes, the Hittite Empire was known as "The Land of a Thousand Gods" for a good reason! They syncretised widely, absorbing Hurrian and Babylonian and many other deities into their pantheon. The Dolichenus image from Vindolanda is perhaps not the best representation of him. Of the many other Roman images of him, he is armoured, and typically wears something like the tall hat/helmet of the Hittite Gods (although not horned - the Hittite God 'marker'). Then again, another poster on another forum suggested that the presence of a bull and a weapon (and the potential for the hat to be the Phrygian cap) might indicate some Mithraic influence on the cult of Dolichenus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordopolis Posted November 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2022 5 hours ago, Novosedoff said: The founders of Rome, Remus and Romulus, seem to have claimed their lineage from Aeneas, a survivor from Troy, while Troy was located on the outskirts of the Hittite kingdom. There could have been some exchange of ideas. For instance, Remus and Romulus sucked from the Capitoline wolf, but the same image is also present in Anatolian Turkish mythology if you google by the word Asena. So syncretism was widespread. That would be quite brilliant if Dolichenus had been transmitted via the mythical (or maybe not so mythical) Trojan migrations to Italy! However, Jupiter Dolichenus only seems to appear around the 1st c AD, which is why I think this was possibly brought back from abroad by Rome's itinerant legions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novosedoff Posted November 18, 2022 Report Share Posted November 18, 2022 (edited) The image of a man riding or killing a bull was widepsread in the ancient world. Gilgamesh fought the Bull of heaven https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_of_Heaven Indra was associated with the bull when he fought serpent-like demon Vritra. In Iranian Zoroastrian Avesta the first human being called Yima (or Jamshid) was seduced by Ahriman and killed a bull in order to try its meat (English wiki doesn't say anything about this, but the corresponding Russian article does) Prometheus sacrificed a bull too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus Finally, we can also recall the bull-like monster Minotaur from Crete slain by Theseus. The whole concept of this seems purely Aryan, while the explanation is apparently connected with the confrontation between nomadic cattle breeders and settled agricultural tribes. The other explanation can be related to Zodiac and spring equinox. If you check out the below chart the Taurus age was over by the very beginning of the second millennium BCE. I always wondered why there are so many ancient myths related to bulls and even pisces (eg. Christian fishery club), but no myth is seemingly related to rams. It appears that ancient folks didn't view the Aries constellation as ram's head, it was more often associated with a sickle. So the constellation was predominantly associated with farmers and human labor. 3 hours ago, Gordopolis said: Edited November 18, 2022 by Novosedoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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