Germanicus

[Neos Dionysos]

I wonder if Caligula would have ended up the same guy if he hadn't spent so much time with Tiberius? after all, I think it was Tiberius who said that he was raising up a viper for the Roman people.

 

 

I completely agree. Caligula was crazy and mad because of Tiberius, he was a victim and then in the end, history remembers Caligula as the mad one and Tiberius as an 'ok' emperor.

 

Who knows, if Germanicus had made emperor, and done at least as good a job as Augustus, (the fact he was honor bound and did NOT march on Rome speaks volumes for his character), Caligula would have followed possibly, (he did have two older brothers), and he himself beloved by the army may have been an excellent ruler as well and Julio-Claudian line would have been a damn good ruling line. Of course... this is a lot of what if's... and we sadly shall never ever know.

[Ursus]

Here are two Roman cultural values at odds.

 

Pietas - piety, duty and respect to the social order, obeying one's elders and superiors.

 

Auctoritas - the sense of one's standing in community, the glory and honor of one's position and the assumption it should increase with the right leverage.

 

If these two cultural traits are not at odds then all well and good. If however there is a conflict which one takes precedence?

 

People like Cicero - and apparently, Germanicus - felt that Piety to the social order outweighed one's ambitions to increase one's standing.

 

People like my Icon took the opposite school of thought ....

 

I think the deciding factor is really what is best for the empire. Would Germanicus have made a better emperor than Tiberius? Quite possibly! Had I been Germanicus that would have been enough consideration - that and personal Auctoritas, of course. The two would have dovetailed nicely. I'm sure such were the thoughts of Caesar too. The great thing about Roman values is that there is not necessarily a dichotomy between what is good for you and what is good for the culture as a whole.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Ursus, can you name a few that actually had the Cicero's school of thought after Pius Antoninus' death?

[M. Porcius Cato]

Oh Cato, your still stern as ever, the Republic-lover. So what happens then if another general who wanted to be imperator decided to try to usurp your power. What would you do Cato?

 

Have him thrown from the Tarpeian Rock--after a trial of course.

Edited December 11, 2005 by M. Porcius Cato

[phil25]

Oh Cato, your still stern as ever, the Republic-lover. So what happens then if another general who wanted to be imperator decided to try to usurp your power. What would you do Cato?

 

 

Can I be controversial, and suggest that Germanicus would have been an appaling Emperor/Princeps?

 

I think we need to separate his myth from his known actions - he appears to have seriously mishandled the mutiny of the Rhine legions, becoming emotional and excitable. His career suggests to me a weak man, seeking to emulate his dead father Drusus, and much under the thumb of his wife who seems to have inherited her father's determination and brains. I suspect that if we knew, we would find Germanicus' career was aided and guided by some capable subordinates (as Octavian had Agrippa and Maecenas.

 

I see no evidence, bar sentimentality (drawn largely from later sources) that would have made him a better Emperor than Tiberius.

 

Leaving myth aside again, and treating the sexual depravities as tabloid fabrications of the day, I see Tiberius as a capable ruler, hard-working and experienced in every facet of government, who sought to diminish his own role and to try to breath some life back into the Senate to aid him. I think he was probably difficult, an intellectual and a poor communicator, and this weighed against him. he also came too late to the job and in his old-age he relied to heavily on Sejanus 9the evil-genius/eminence gris0 of the reign. Livia also sought to interfere. But I think Tiberius was a good emperor in the main, perhaps seeking to put into practice the hidden principiate that Augustus and Agrippa had developed in his youth.

 

He was right to suspect Germanicus, and lucky that he was either killed or died when he did - not least after Germanicus's unapproved trip to Egypt. In the terms of his day, if Tiberius had Germanicus killed, he was probably being sensible.

 

Radically, and with apologies if i have ofended anyone's hero,

 

Phil

[M. Porcius Cato]

Tiberius the hero? Hmmm... secret police, proscriptions, illegal usurpation of power...I'm not seeing it. How do you explain Tacitus' account of Tiberius given Tiberius' hypothetically judicious rule?

[P.Clodius]

Why is everyone so anti Tiberius? I don't get it, the empire prospered under his watch, he was an able administrator, and a great general. Tiberius rocked, Tacitus had an agenda. I believe we've already covered this in another lengthy thread.

[Germanicus]

he appears to have seriously mishandled the mutiny of the Rhine legions, becoming emotional and excitable.

 

I can't think of a mutiny in the period where the Commander didn't become excitable and emotional. Emotion was the way they usually appealed to their troops when other efforts failed. Germanisus was no different in this regard accept that he did actually quell the mutiny. Indeed with donative concessions to the troops, but this was becomming the norm. It speaks volumes that he didn't seize power when the opportunity was given, something I've no doubt his wife would have actively persued, had she been "wearing the pants" so to speak.

 

As for Tiberius, I'm in Catos camp.

 

with apologies if i have ofended anyone's hero

 

Don't worry about offending any heros, I'm not emotionly attached to some Roman that died 2000 years ago, I just like the name, it has a special significance for me.